Nicklaus's Ball Position

The intent of this thread was to look at ball position in relation to the natural low point in the swing. After that, the preferable ball position relative to the amount of lateral hip slide during the downswing. Thus if a person has good hip slide, playing the ball more up in their stance is likely better. Conversely, if one has minimal hip slide, which is most golfers, then playing the ball more back is a better position. However, if someone with minimal lateral slide starts doing T2T, or Hogan Hips, they might have to adjust ball position.

In Hogan's famous book, he provided a graphic about a fixed ball position for all clubs like Nicklaus (pic below). And of course, Hogan did the T2T move. Thus he did T2T and played the ball off his lead heel. Had Hogan not done the T2T move, or only slightly, he may have advocated to play the ball more towards the middle of his stance.

When I started working on T2T I hit pushes and overdraws. At first I thought there was something wrong with my swing and started chasing non-fixes. Then it dawned on me that my ball position may be too far back. I would assume 2 inches of T2T movement at the top equates to a low point that has moved two inches forward in my stance. So as I moved the ball more forward, the pushes and overdraws died down.

It's interesting that Hogan moved from a closed stance with his driver, and progressively opened his stance for shorter irons and wedges. But then again, Hogan wanted to eliminate the left side of the golf course and he hit noticeable fades. Thus his tailbone "line" from an overhead view must have traveled to the left of his target on the backswing as his stance was more open. Plus, similar to Nicklaus's fade instruction, Hogan must have aimed his clubface at the target and then swung along his toe line, or from a top view his club handle would travel outside the target line on the backswing, then cut across the target line on the downswing. Who really knows if he did this all the time as in the picture, but it must have been his "go to" ball / feet positioning.

Nicklaus also advocated for a a fixed ball position for a consistent low point, but he didn't specifically teach to progressively open the stance, at least as a rule. He just moved the trail foot up or back, then he would adjust for a fade or draw, in his case mostly high power fades. Thus I imagine Nicklaus's open stance was not as open as Hogan showed in his book, and I'm fairly certain Nicklaus hit a 7 iron much farther than Hogan, but then again, the irons are less about distance and more about accuracy.

Feel free to experiment as you see fit. Just recognize that in doing so you are certainly modifying the Shot Shaping Grid. The ball flight laws obviously don't change, so now instead of ball position the Grid will rely on alignment direction and degree. For those who have the book there is some info on the Nicklaus push-fade on pages 124-125 (hardcover version). Also, you'll see some detail on ball position on pages 49-50. There are things to be aware of if going with a more forward ball position.

Tom, if folks keep moving the ball up and back in their stance, would that not create additional variables vs. a fixed ball position? My guess is a lot of folks, including myself, don't always place the ball in exactly the same spot. It's much easier to drop a club to the inside lead heel and check ball position. It's not so easy to visualize one, two or three balls "back" in the stance. Then it gets harder on up and down hill lies.

I think this is what you mean by hitting from a "stock" position, or keeping ball placement a constant vs. variable.

Tom - I'm just beginning your course (but have 30 years of bad habits lol). Wouldn't it be better for someone like me, who is trying to find that consistant swing, to follow your instructions for where to place the ball? I can see if someone has mastered the swing fundamentals to then tweek, but for most of us who are learning, I would think we should stick to your lesson. Or, am I wrong? should we be experimenting with this?

You certainly do have some leeway for personal preference. Per the book the stock S&T ball position is in the middle of the stance for short irons to encourage more of a descending strike, two balls inside the lead heel for middle irons, and creeping more forward for the longer clubs - the farthest forward being even with the inside of the lead heel for the driver (with the stance width increasing as we move from shorter to longer clubs). From there we can then make incremental tweaks to see how different positions affect impact quality and shot shape. I had previously used a consistent ball position for all clubs, but as I became more proficient with working the grid I found myself migrating closer and closer to the prescribed stock positions for standard shots.

"Let your ball striking and shot shape be your guide...."

I just realized. @Tom Saguto,Isn't this the same ball position as one club head off the front heel? Maybe, just a little wider stance?

That ball positioning seems good for Driver. However, the Grid would not allow for good ”ball, then divot contact?” Tom, please straighten this all out. I think many are confused right now.

@GolfLivesMatter Thanks for the video! So, as this relates to the Grid and SnT, would one then do what Jack did when he wanted hit a cut or a draw? With the recommended SnT grip (quite neutral), the Grid takes care of swing path needed to create the desired curvature of the ball left or right. Jack said he had an open clubface when he wanted to draw the ball and vice versa when he wanted to cut it. Thoughts?

I want to experiment with Jack’s ball positioning. After all, must have exceeding merit from a world renowned and best Golfer who ever lived (my opinion).

@GolfLivesMatter. I like the idea. It makes sense being the best ball position in my mind. Especially coming from Jack! I guess all you would need to do is move the back foot for short, middle, or longer clubs. Thanks for sharing.