Hello KFC Saguto enthusiasts! Is there a range of acceptable positions for the lead arm? I’m asking due to some confusion after watching 3.2 Stop: Train the Lead Arm Position. As you can see Tom’s lead arm is quite below the shoulder line and his hands are below the mid-bicep. Yet at 1:18 he states ‘ this is the backswing.’ This position I feel I can obtain. However it appears to me that the only way to get the lead arm at or just below the shoulder line is to lift the arm which Tom specifically states we are not to do. Clarification would be great! And yes, I’ve seen other videos/pics where Tom’s lead arm is at his shoulder line, thus the confusion. Help please!
@Vinsk - Your videos came through fine.
There's a lot of valuable and helpful insight being offered here by your fellow members. I just want to caution you not allow yourself to get overloaded with mechanical thoughts. Remember - the V1 Analysis lesson plan includes my recommendations to help you overcome the present-day challenges and get you to the next level. The learning process is necessarily incremental because there are ghosts of swings past that need to be neutralized and ultimately - through appropriate drill work - eradicated. Then we move forward. Permit yourself the time to build a solid foundation. We have to tear down the old house before we erect a new one in its place. The vast majority of us - myself included - have to do it this way, and we are all better for it in the long run.
Interesting, you created a right triangle at about the 9 o'clock position. This is exactly what I was trying to describe, but didn't think about the birds eye view.
The bird's eye view in this YT episode clearly shows the concentric hand and club paths.
LOL. Best video ever! I do think some folks struggle more than others with S&T because it's easy to over-do, or misinterpret some of the fundamentals. Knees are one of the most often overlooked causes of a frustrating swing.
Plus, S&T emphasizes that the swing is rotational, but some misinterpret that to the point they take the club far too inside early in the backswing. That alone can mess up every other fundamental. Plus, an inside takeaway can easily cause a drifting of weight onto the trail foot. Thus they can be both tilted AND on their trail foot. Not good.
The backswing video showing the club head actually being outside of the hands on the takeaway, with the club face pointing more down, is excellent. I believe in that video there's also instruction that the lead bicep stays against the pec on the takeaway which in turn places the club face pointing down at the 9 o'clock position. So it's nearly automatic, but for those who take the club inside too early, this will feel like the backswing is too steep when it's not. To that extent, I see a LOT of folks "drag" the club back too low on the takeaway which also causes a weight shift to the trail foot and a reverse pivot, and thus a swing from the right side. The club actually moves upward fairly quickly and will feel slightly more "out and up" to the top vs. "around".
The infamous Disco Knees Episode.
Junior Krispy here...LOL. I think Vinsk is working too hard to "tilt" at the top and "Hogan Hip" movement. He is very tilted left at the top, with (for me) too much Hogan Hip, such that he's in a "C position" look at the top, like a quarter moon. Plus his lead knee is buckling and moving to his trail knee which hampers his foundation.
Then from the top it appears his weight is actually shifting to his trail side on the downswing. It appears to be more of a upper body swing vs. from the ground up, and maybe Vinsk is taking the club too far inside on the takeaway which is possibly causing his lower body to wait for the club to avoid trapping his trail elbow behind his body. I would start by working on the lead knee movement without a club, in a mirror. Tom has a video about the knee movement and Vinsk has "Disco Knees". But it's common and can easily be fixed. Don't do much more until the knee position is ironed out because otherwise there won't be a solid foundation to build upon.
I was asked to post a video though. This is just a picture. My video posts aren’t going through….
The format you just used is fine for posting here. If you can add the DTL view that will be helpful for those who are looking to assist you.
My video is on V1. Is there a particular format I need to use to post it here?
I'm loving the scenery, @Vinsk!
I'll let others comment as you already have my V1, but it looks like you've gotten into a very good position at this point in the swing. With regard to the breakdown that occurs shortly thereafter, the key is to avoid going beyond your body's natural stopping point in the backswing where the tilting, turning, and extending motions are complete, the lead arm has crossed the chest 45 degrees, and the wrists are properly set (preferably with a flat or slightly bowed lead wrist). This is the point where if we were to try to go any further any or all of the following will occur:
1) the lead arm will bend and/or lift
2) the wrists will break down
3) the lead knee will kick inward towards the trail side
4) the lead shoulder will level out and lose its orientation towards the ball
5) weight will shift into the trail side and bring the low point back with it, resulting in inconsistent contact and unpredictable ball flight.
6) you'll "chicken wing" and/or flip through impact
7) pain, discomfort, and/or possible injury
@Nocona Colt Abernathy, @Russell Hogue, PhD, @GolfLivesMatter - Any thoughts for Vinsk here?
Wow! Ok thanks guys! Tom did a V1 for me and I wanted to make sure I’m doing the two drills he gave me properly. I’ve always been a too flat swinger so my arm being at or even just below my shoulder line feels like Tommy Fleetwood to me..lol. But the standing up and moving the arm across the chest then getting into position helps me feel it much better. Thank you all! My current as sent to Tom. This isn’t even the top. I fold my arms and get all messed up from there…lol.
As I say at the end of this lesson, "we're doing away with micromanagement"....😎
Lead arm crosses the chest 45 degrees as you tilt, turn, and extend while keeping your swing center intact should put that lead arm at or just below the shoulder line.
Grip a club, stand up straight, and hold your arms out in front of you at shoulder height, making sure they are parallel to the ground. While still standing upright, move your lead arm across your chest, allowing the trail arm to fold 90 degrees or so as you do this. Now, keeping everything where it is, bend from the waist to orient yourself to the ground as you would in your setup posture. Your lead arm should now be on or just below the shoulder line and your hands deep behind the trail shoulder. Perfect top of backswing position!
(Chapter 2 gets you there, and Drill 2.8 ingrains it. Don't rush through it!)
3.2 is a drill to avoid lifting the lead arm and showing what is different to your old swing. So remember that drills are exercises to learn the new swing but they do not show the final swing.
I did a complete reset of my old (bad) swing and did all the drills to forget the old habits and to learn the new system. It will take some time (months), but Tom`s learningsystem works great.
If you want to see final swings look at "Power + Distance" but don`t try it to early.
You must be patient, learn step by step, look all the videos (even the indoor training, that gives additional information) and do all the exercises.