Progress after about a month and a half: good but still fighting the chicken wing (updated)

@GolfLivesMatter Been meaning to follow-up with you to get your thoughts on my current progress (I finally have some vids which I'll post in the dedicated thread - recorded in slow-mo).

Year two, it's early in the season so I really want to get a few basics in place.

At present, I've been really focusing on the backswing. I know I have work with the downswing (which I'll describe below) but I want to get a good swing plane back and know how it feels when properly executed. If I can't get that in a good place my swing will always be subject to variance.

From the beginning, I've been fighting lead arm separation from the chest. I think I've improved it a bit since last year but there's plenty of room for improvement. I'm also working on extension and realizing that I just wasn't doing it. It definitely FEELS different when I do it.

Anyway, here's what I think I'm doing right so I'm not putting much effort into "fixing" these items. You could, of course, disabuse me of any or all of this after you've seen the videos I post:

1. Setup and posture are decent;

2. Straight arms, pits up;

3. Weight forward and maintained "against the wall" throughout;

4. I'm reasonably centered over the ball.

Here's what I'm trying to fix in my backswing:

1. Lead arm across the chest -too much separation;

2. Buttons up!;

3. I think - but am not sure - I have enough tilt;

4. Extension, of course.

As for the downswing, I'd bet the farm the main missing ingredient is lateral hip movement BEFORE shoulder rotation. Watching my most recent videos, it's obvious that the first movement of my backswing is shoulder rotation. This confirms your observation about my shoulders moving WAY too fast which explains a lot.

Once I get the backswing on a good plane, on to lateral hip movement (and keeping my right leg straighter and quieter as pointed out by Tom in my last v1 with him last year).

I almost forgot: TENSION. I really have to loosen up. A lot.

I appreciate any advice you (or anyone!) might have.

Thanks,

James

No problem. A shoulder driven backswing will help get the club into position. An arm lift driven backswing makes things harder. However, the most important part is your position at the top, then what happens from there. Pro's have all kinds of backswings, some have steeper or flatter swing planes, but most look more similar than different during the downswing and at impact. Your upper body is simply out-racing your lower body to the ball.

If you got Tom's latest Hogan Hip video email, check it out as it may help you to get your lower body pre-set forward at the top, or give your lower body a chance to out-race, or remain ahead of your upper body.

@GolfLivesMatter Thanks for resurrecting this post and your thoughtful and insightful comments. I've been planning on posting a new update and will do so here tonight or tomorrow. All of your comments are accurate. For now, I still haven't played much but I've been hitting into my garage net and working hard at getting that first 3 feet of my backswing on the right path. I'm having a really hard time keeping that lead arm across the chest in the beginning. I'll be in touch - thanks again!

James

My view is your hands are lagging too far behind, thus your lower body has to stall on the downswing because it MUST do so to let the club handle pass your body. See the pic below...early extension...i.e., stand up move at impact...belt buckle moving out to the ball vs. rotating to the target. You can't rotate your hips because your shoulders are WAY too fast, and thus your hands are too far behind, and therefore your body knows it has to WAIT for the hands to come through. Lower body stall.

I suggest PAUSING at the top and THEN initiate the downswing with your lower body. I had a heck of a time pausing your downswing because it happens so fast. You look good, just think, on the backswing....Up...one...hit. This will give your hands time to drop (don't pull them down). Love the fact that you are working HARD to figure out this stupid frustrating game!!!

I took a Screenshot on my iPad of Tom SAGUTO and it makes sense to me by turning the shoulders around the body. This really helped me on the Range today.

You're right @Tom Saguto. I think I'm going to start writing up a reply to my own swing the way I do my fellow Sagutonaut. I analyze my swing semi regularly but I don't offer up the advice to myself.

My game is way better. I even got a compliment on my short game yesterday!

@danny - You know enough about this swing now and have offered excellent assessments of other members' videos and photos. Step back out of first person ("I" and "me") and instead try reviewing your swing as if it were someone else. Not easy, but have a look at this KFC Club video in which I analyze my own swing. I believe @llydisommma1 makes some valid points in his comments to give you a starting point.

A 165 yard 7 iron with the potential for more. My oh my, how far you've come!

Here's one of my swing today. This was a 7 iron and I got 165 yard carry. I'm still coming over top chop!... It's maddening!

James,

What I see; On the down the line view, really nice setup! You takeaway is coming in way under the shaft line and you're lifting to compensate for that at the top of the downswing. Your are rotating your hips. This looks A LOT like my swing currently. I have, just these last coupe of days, been able to get the hip slide going. The results are a mixed bag...

You are doing a nice job of shallowing the club after your initial steepening at the transition but, you're not getting back to the shaft plane. I believe the reason for this is that you're "goathumping!" I wish I didn't know what that was... It's one of my problems too. It is the tendancy to move your hips forward during the downswing.

On your face on view, you aren't stacked, you have your hips ahead of your knees and your shoulders are ahead of your hips. (guess who else was doing this?) So, this, I think is in part happening due to the 90% weight forward drill. In that drill, it is imperative that your head and your shoulders remain stacked over your knees. It is ok for your hips to be a bit forward but the head and shoulders can't go with them. This is what makes the 90% weight forward drill difficult, physically. It's practically a yoga pose! If you feel comfortable to the 90% drill you're not doing it right! LOL

I believe, if you go back and re-center your setup and work on that takeaway, a lot of what I see will go away! You look to be right on the edge of a great swing! seriously good work. You flatten your shoulders ever so slightly on the backswing and then hump the goat, but then you bring them back again after impact.

Also, your head moves down and away from the target a bit in the backswing. But again, I think getting your setup back in place is going to help that and working on that takeaway will sort out a lot too. It seem like a lot but I think there are a number of symptoms associated with just one or two causes.

Thanks for sharing your video! I dragged it into the V1 Home app and drew some lines and stuff!

Danny

@James Flood - There are certainly different and effective thoughts or feels for accomplishing the tilt/turn/extend motions. Based on what you are focusing on you may benefit from this Arnold Palmer favorite: pointing the lead shoulder at the ball.

@James Flood , my only comment at the moment is your swing looks pretty fast compared to Tom's videos. Especially his reference swings like Charlie Wi. From music I know the most burnin' players start out practicing super-super-slow, discovering things along the way that they don't feel right, or need to work out at lower tempo. Other than that it looks like a good swing in the making forming.

Back to the topic of swing thoughts, I think I've found one which may prove useful (to me, anyway). Rather than think of Tilt as something I have to do, I've started to think of something I have to maintain throughout the swing. Assuming other elements are in place, the tilt should occur naturally.

When I set up, my spine is already bent forward creating a relationship with the ball. If (and this is a big if) I can rotate my shoulders with my arms in, etc., while maintaining that relationship, tilt will happen. I've found that focusing on getting the lead shoulder under my chin in the backswing gets things moving in the right direction.

Still have a lot to do but am generally pleased with my progress. Here are two clips from my practice yesterday:

From this clip I noticed: 1) I'm not keeping my weight up against the wall as much as I thought and 2) too much head movement so likely have to work on extension a bit.

From this one: clearly need more rotation, less lifting. If I could get that trail elbow under control I think I'd be well on my way to the land of milk and honey.

Thanks for reading and open to any and all suggestions. James

@Tom Saguto and @danny: I was about to ask but just found Danny's useful post about ideal camera placement if anyone is interested: https://sagutogolf.wixsite.com/sagutogolf/forum/backswing-help/camera-angle

@danny is absolutely correct about that DTL camera angle. Please do make sure that it is on the foot line as the target line angle skews the perspective of a viewer who is attempting to discern specific lines and paths.

Thanks!

Looks like your right there! The only thing I can see is that, maybe, your lead arm is a little high at the top of the backswing. It should be going across the middle of your bicep. It would be good to see some video! I'd love to see how you're starting your downswing! Also, get the camera on your foot line. I think you're on the target line in the down the line image

I'm really struggling with that. I also noticed that I'm dipping my head too. The extension aspect is something I intend to work on now.

Thanks @Tom Saguto ! RE: the forum, I thought that if someone previously participated in a thread that they'd get a notification but I'll tag them here just in case: @danny @thomas.linehan @ericostling @GolfLivesMatter

Thanks for the suggestion regarding extension. That's one element I've just sort of taken on faith but I'll be sure to give it more attention. I do the "arm across the chest drill" regularly to get a good feel for the motion but some of the form gets lost once I put the club in my hand.

Thanks again and I'm welcome to suggestions from anyone. I'm still curious to hear what swing thoughts have worked for others.

James

Had an hour to kill this afternoon so went to the range. Still seeking that delicate balance between shoulder down, hands in, hip turn.

Anyway, one thing I've realized is that my swing hasn't changed as much as I thought. And that's not a problem. The changes thus far have been incremental but profound.

THINGS I'M DOING RIGHT:

1. Keeping my weight forward: if I quit S&T now but retained this, I'm already a better player;

2. Arms straight / pits up: same assessment as above. I've gained so much control from this alone;

3. Lead shoulder awareness: still work to do "with" the shoulder but the awareness alone is valuable;

THINGS I'M CURRENTLY WORKING ON:

1. Tilt: I've gained some - to be sure - but the struggle continues. Rather than do a full tilt, I think I'm cheating a bit and simulating tilt by (slightly) lowering my head toward the ball and lifting in the backswing;

2. Trail elbow: I've said enough about this but I think it's improving;

3. Hands in: not much to add other than I'm working to improve this. I suspect if I get the trail elbow under control they will come along for the rise. Or maybe it's the other way around.

Planned on filming for V1 analysis with @Tom Saguto but that app is a bit of a mess on Android. It works sometimes, just not today. Here are two screenshots from swings I was able to salvage - one with the app, one with my phone's camera.

HEAD-ON ("apply directly to the forehead" - someone here must remember that.)

DTL:

I think these pics show my progress with regard to keeping the weight forward, arms together, and greater hip turn. Still some trail elbow detachment but not too bad.

Tom, I'll get clips to you soon as I think I've toiled enough and am definitely ready for round 2.

Thanks for reading!

James

@danny this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. I like to use the "club across the chest" exercise to train the movement. I even filmed myself doing it and took a screenshot - to establish a baseline, "ideal" movement - and used it to compare with my actual swings. Feels solid practicing it but, once I put a club in my hand, all bets are off.

Ideally, the hips and shoulders will turn in concert in a nice smooth backswing. Depending upon what I'm focusing on in a given swing, it's as if my shoulders and hips aren't starting at the same time, each battling for control. That's when my old swing steps in as a mediator, says "I got this", makes some adjustments (generally lifting the trail arm), to get me back to "normal". And, honestly, it's served me reasonably well thus far but I know that it's also holding me back.

That's why I'm interested to hear what swing thoughts have worked for others. I'm hoping that if I tell myself the right thing (right, meaning effective) before starting the swing, all parts will play well with each other.

I've just discovered what is causing my steep downswing. When taking the club back I'm starting with the hips and straightening my trail leg way too early. The sequence is a top down backswing and a bottom up downswing. I've currently got it backwards. It's a tough transition to go opposite... I do know that, when I do start the backswing with my shoulders the clubhead follows the shaft line from setup and the downswing is way more shallow and looks more like it should.

Thanks as always, Tom!