Ball Position Inconsistencies on Youtube and Online Lessons?

Fantastic analysis of a great swing, @GolfLivesMatter!

As I've often said - whether it be in regard to comments pertaining to Hogan, Woods, Fleetwood, Rahm, Rory, Insert Favorite Tour Player Here: __________ - Stack and Tilt is a model of the golf swing based on data from the best golf ball strikers. For this reason, someone can be embracing key Stack and Tilt elements without being aware of it. This is because there are basic requirements that must be met to hit a golf ball consistently on the center of the clubface. There are also components necessary to add power to the golf swing without sacrificing accuracy. Stack and Tilt determined, based on a study of the best golfers of all time, that they all had 3 things in common (the 3 main golf fundamentals):

1. Hit the ground in the same spot every time (i.e.: exemplary low point control for consistently crispy contact)

2. Have enough power to play the golf course well (POWER)

3. Be able to have a predictable curve (accuracy).

A player MUST be able to do those three things to be good at golf, and S&T provides a system for accomplishing these fundamentals incredibly well! So, as far as tour players using 100% of it, 99% of it, 97% of it, or 78% of it, it doesn't really matter because they're ALL doing it to some extent. Those 3 fundamentals never change!

Thanks for this excellent contribution!

Good exchange. I analyzed Tommy Fleetwood's driver swing and found some things that I were somewhat interesting. I should caveat that Fleetwood's swing is not a standard to chase or mimic, just some observations about his swing.

At address his trail hip is just inside his trail foot...check. Pretty standard. As he takes the club back, his shoulders move off the ball to the right a couple of inches. However, as he progresses on the backswing, his tailbone is performing a compensating move to the left, or towards the target. Not a ton of tailbone shift, maybe a couple of inches. At the top he doesn't appear to be 100% stacked directly over the ball, say 90%...but I surmise he's stacked over his preferred low point.

Thus it's interesting that at the top of his backswing his tailbone has shifted left, his left knee is protruding forward, while his shoulders have moved a little to the right. Keep in mind this is his driver swing so he's positioning himself to create a swing arc that likely results in a one-ish degree downward strike. However, the loft of the driver will result in a positive launch angle. Plus, on his downswing his tailbone (at impact) has moved at least 9 inches to the left. Amazing amount of hip movement.

The other thing to note is his head position. As he progresses to the top, his head moves to the right due to his shoulder movement to the right, but on the downswing his head stays at that exact same spot through impact. His head is nearly facing straight down at impact. Keeping the head at the same exact spot on the downswing is key to rapid improvement for the driver swing (all swings for that matter), as well as getting the tailbone moving left, even a little at the top to "preset" the weight forward. Moving another 5 to 6 inches on the downswing takes some work because most of us are used to spinning the hips early vs. a continuous slide/turn.

Seems Fleetwood's driver swing is S&T with a twist of moving the shoulders right on the takeaway. Hogan kinda did the same thing but most swing analyzers missed the fact that his tailbone significantly shifted to the left as he reached the top, and missed that his right knee was straightening.

Holy WOW! That was a very quick and insightful response, Tom! Really appreciate it!

I see what you mean now by the traditional S&T approach (confirming what you said by looking at the GolfTec website). However, I should assure you that you are at the level of most tour players (you have one of the best KFC crispy sounds I have ever heard!).

With regards to the weight forward on longer clubs, I have been trying to keep this "in check" by pushing by tailbone more towards the target - even more so on longer clubs. I find that this keeps me "stacked" over the ball more often than not. However, consistency is still a thing for me and I find myself not lateral sliding or pushing off the lead foot enough. I don't think I am "chopping" as I have been avoiding the "alignment stick of death" and swinging under it.

Yes, I am considering purchasing a few V1 swing sessions with you. I guess we can take this offline :)

Best,

Eugene

Hi @eugene.ma.sc,

In general you have some leeway with regard to ball position. While I have played with a consistent ball position for all clubs, S&T instruction suggests a stock ball position that is in the middle of the stance for short irons, two balls inside the lead heel for middle irons, and incrementally more forward for the longer clubs - the farthest forward being even with the inside of the lead heel for the driver (with the stance width increasing as we move from shorter to longer clubs). Once the downswing is approaching the low point on a proper in-to-out path, it's a good idea for each golfer to make incremental tweaks to see how different positions affect impact quality and shot shape, as not everyone fits the definition of "stock".

With regard to my driver ball position, a couple of things: 1) Slight differences in camera angle can really mess with your perspective of ball position when viewing a swing video, and 2) Even the best players on the planet experience some ball position "creep" from time to time. While I don't not proclaim to be anywhere close to that level, you can rest assured that it happens to me as well. Ball position is something we would all do well to check on periodically because an inch in either direction can have a noticeable effect on ball flight.

As for the bane of your existence, here is what I say to folks who are hitting everything well except for the longer clubs, as it usually can be can be attributed to one of the following:

1) They don't start with - or maintain - enough weight on the front side. In general with the longer clubs we should add a little more front weight load at address - more like 60/40 instead of the 55/45 prescribed for the other clubs. This forward weight should gradually increase to the top of the backswing (70/30) and build further on the downswing - approximately 80/20 halfway down, 90/10 impact, and 95/5 finish.

2) Their hips are not continuing their lateral slide through impact. This is common with the longer clubs as the wider stance means that the hips have a greater distance to travel. If the hips stop moving laterally towards the target on the downswing then their rotation takes over, changing the low point and rerouting the club. This can produce a variety of undesirable results including fat and thin contact, topped shots and popups, straight pulls, and “banana” slices. Here is a drill from the Fixing Common Swing Problems section specific to building in more lateral hip slide in the downswing. Alternatively, if you prefer to focus on your Tailbone-to-Target action during the backswing, then your downswing will not require nearly as much lateral hip motion since they are already well forward by the time you get to the top.

3) They are not allowing the length of the club to dictate the backswing path and are getting too steep as a result. The shaft length of the longer clubs encourages more of an around the body backswing as established by the shaft plane at address. It may "feel" flat as you take it back along the shaft plane for the first few feet, but as long as you maintain the "weight forward, shoulder down, and hands in" components while allowing the club to work around you, it should put you in the proper position at the top so you can attack the ball from the inside. This recent KFC Club members video may help in this regard.

This is a common issue that I am regularly asked to fix, so if yours doesn't relate to any of the above causes - or if it does and you are experiencing difficulty resolving it - we can always arrange for an online lesson or a V1 swing video analysis to pinpoint the culprit and offer an appropriate solution.