Handicaps!

The way I look at handicaps is this:

If you hit your drive, then the 2nd shot to all par 4s, then Rory McIlroy takes over from there, and Rory takes over the 2nd shot (or putting) on par 3s, and takes over the 3rd shot on par 5s, all the way to holing out the ball...what would "you" shoot?

I've posed this question to 85 golfers and most often they said "low 70s". Therefore, their short game, and putting, is effectively adding about 12 to 13 strokes per round.

I am 59 and have been playing for 4 years. Current handicap is 12. Played basketball forever, but the knees no long enjoyed the game. At age 59 I did not want to spend years learning to shoot in the low 70’s. I started last year looking into better ways to learn the game. Came across Moe Norman, then stack and tilt. stack and tilt just seems like the way to go. It eliminates a lot of timing and unnecessary movements. Plus, the constant ball contact was a huge selling point for me. Looking forward to going through the course.

For years I can get mid 20s in my handicap and after a year with Saguto Golf and @Russell Hogue, PhD my handicap is down around 1718 my putting kills me and the driver I don't wanna speak about that right now.

I’m 64 and have been playing golf for more than 50 years. I’ve generally been between 5-7 hcp for the past few years… with an average score in the low 80s. My ball striking with irons has always been below average (short, very high, with a tendency to slice). I decided last winter to get better, to learn the right way to swing a club (I’m essentially self taught). I started searching through YouTube and came across S&T. I waded through the S&T naysayers and started following Tom, Rob Cheney, Nick Taylor and Jess Frank on YouTube. I live in the northeast and was fortunate to go to the greater Orlando area last February for a month. I decided to test S&T on the course… and I started shooting consistent scores in the mid 70s. My distance was shorter than normal but it was laser accurate. I also developed a horrific case of “golfers elbow”. I videoed my swing in the Spring and noticed I was way inside and low on the takeaway. Hence, I started the journey to improve in earnest. At the time I was a 5.1 hcp… in the coming months I ballooned to a 8.2 (chunking and topping the ball became a problem caused by my very steep downswing). Mid-summer I was desperate, even thinking of abandoning S&T, until I decided to join Saguto Golf. There’s so much content that I’m still not through all of the videos. My hcp stayed in the 8+ range until one day from out of nowhere in early September I shot 71 (one under). Ball striking was superb. Shortly after I shot a 75. The hcp dropped back to mid 5 range. It has since gone up to 6.7 hcp (avg score of 81) since the 71 and 75 dropped off of my last 20 rounds. I still have an issue chopping my irons with an over the top move, especially on par 3s. I’ve been working on it but the cold weather is slowing me down. My goal is to consistently shoot in the 70s. There is a huge mental difference for me to shoot 79 vs 80. I may need a video lesson with Tom to sort it out before the Spring season starts. I have to admit that on occasion I’ll go back to my old swing, but it doesn’t feel crispy when I hit a good shot. Tom’s school has given me a much better understanding of the golf swing. For now I’m sticking with S&T.

Started the swing change I was a 14 and got down to a 9 after 7 months. I hurt my back (nion golf related) so currently an an 11. But just geting bavk into the swing of thinga so I am sure it will drop again soon, The nice thing about this is I am not as rusty as I thiught I would be arter the time off to recuperate.

Life long golfer, 58 years old, Stack and Tilt player, current index is 6.6 which is a couple of strokes higher than beginning of summer, which was a couple of strokes higher than last year. Going in the wrong direction, so I just joined SagutoGolf yesterday and am starting over with the basics course. Already found a couple of things with grip and setup that I didn't realize I was doing. I'm excited to keep going!

Agree with my mates here about getting a USGA ID. There are also some golf apps (already mentioned) that will calculate your HCP. I use The Grint which allows you to link your GHIN ID so you can get a WSH and GHIN hcp rating which is cool. Plus it has the on course GPS and score keeping functions as well as some statistical analysis.

It depends a bit on what you want to do with the Hcp. If you plan to play in sanctioned tournaments then an official GHIN Hcp is probably the best way to go. If you just want to know for personal reasons or to play against friends just get a good app - or at least start there and see where it leads.

It is a little confusing at first and the USGA site provides a lot of information for a good start.

AE

Right now I am hoovering around a 21 hcp. It is somewhat frustrating since my hcp with my old swing was about 15. Too be fair though that was about 8 years ago and I just took the game back up this summer so I am a tad older - although still very athletic. I missed most of the golf season due to some health issues early on but have been trying to get out one or two times a week to shoot nine holes for about a month or so now - packing my new swing of course.

That said, my ball striking is just so much better than it ever was with my old swing. I practice pretty much every day using a net or practice balls and it's a real good feeling to make that consistent contact and take a divot - which I never really did before. So while I might be frustrated, I know it's just a matter of time before it starts to come down as the swing becomes more second nature and I get back to spending a little time on my short game - which was the strongest part of my game back when I was a 15.

Still for right now I put 90% of my practice time on honing the new swing. Yeah I know you need that short game too and I agree with @GolfLivesMatter when it comes to how it can impact your scoring and hcp, there is no doubt it is what is keeping me at 21 right now. But I also know with just a little focus I can get that back pretty quick. There will be plenty of time next spring to work on the short game, for right now though I am loving the solid contact and can deal with my hcp being a little high. I am confident I can get it to the mid to low teens next year and hopefully break 80 one time.

Great topic with some interesting comments.

AE

Handicaps are interesting because, at least after my 40 years of watching "90" golfers playing golf, most of the strokes lost are due to inferior short games and putting. Oddly enough, this part of the game does not require athletic ability, swing speed, etc, but yet contributes to a significant amount of strokes over par

Started this year…was shooting in the upper 120’s…since watching the YouTube vids and signing up for the online school (and hours of practice!) I just shot a 100 even yesterday (like 6-7 inches short on a putt to break 100 and finish at 99 🤣)…I‘ve been getting better and better and hope to break 100 before the season ends here.

I started playing golf about 4 years ago and have been around 100-105, with a mid-90s here and there. Usually get in about 12 rounds a year.

Stumbled upon Tom on YouTube and found his videos on lead foot weight and arm/body/head movement to be extremely helpful. Implementing on my next outing got me instant ball-striking results that seemed to be repeatable, as my second round was more consistent and lower scored, breaking 90. My improvement from watching YouTube spurred me to pay if for nothing else but a thank you to Tom for helping me make a big leap in my game, and will definitely check out the full curriculum. Can't wait to play my next round!

15.8 after a year of playing so far..

Drive for accuracy...putt and chip for distance.

Spend 80% of your time on the short game and putting. Seriously. Even the pro's hit only 11 greens out of 18.

Ha! Always! So Tom, what's your recommendation on practice to see improvement? I know there are guys who never practice and can fire off a 75. I'm not one of them. Is there a standard ratio to play vs practice?

I have gone from an 18 to an 11. To get to single digits I need to practice more and focus more on 100 yards and in. And to stop watching so many YouTube golf tips when my wife forces me to watch HGTV! Goal for 2022 is to get get to an 8.

I just returned from a golf trip to Phoenix. I shot a 106, 105, 101, 105 and 101. I’m totally frustrated with my full swing shots, so it’s time to try something new. I joined today and am ready to get started. My handicap is 22.3.

5 handicap. I was a 12 handicap 3-4 years ago. I switched to single length clubs and over the last 3 years I have made some real improvements (I am still the shitty golfer in my normal game).

I believe S&T will help me get under 3 this coming year. I need more consistency off the tee, more GIR, and eliminate the 1-2 monkey shots every round...that's the key. Just cleaning up the game should get me to 0-2 range pretty quickly.

@GolfLivesMatter WOW GLM, I just read what your handicap is, awesome!! Thank you for all your contributions on here to myself and others, I appreciate it. And yes, as usual, you are spot on with your comments about the short game and the strokes.

I normally score 97 to 103. However, since beginning the Saguto Training, Oct 13, 2021, I shot a 90 today! I implemented the Tilt, Turn, Extend, about 60% of the time. It is a wonderful feeling of ball compression. I really have to think about the process. Also what hurt me today was the Short Game, within 100 yards. In the final analysis, I am having more fun now. So, I am still camping out with Saguto, 2.8, and practicing drills. Cooking marshmallows. :)

Started golfing regularly last summer was shooting 110-115 and came across toms channel helped me a lot everything clicked put in a lot of work and joined the school and have broken 90 twice this year I would say my average is like 90-95is right now still got some thing to improve on that I’m identifying now but the system works don’t listen to the people that it will take you 10 years to shoot low thats some bs if ya have the right approavh and system like this you will get it.

Went from around 12.0 to 6.0. Best scores in the low 70's, and have now broken par on the front or back nines on challenging courses. What I've found is I'm not going to hit all the greens in regulation due to many issues such as uneven lies, conditions like wind, turf, faulty line-ups, etc, thus the short game combined with putting is now the key to further hcp reduction.

Of the golfers I know who shoot in the 90's or 100's, they get near the green in two shots, but their 35 yard and in game, bunker play, and putting, is their primary struggle, adding at least 8 strokes per round, if not 10 or more. Bladed or chunked pitch shots, lack of distance control. and inconsistent putting line and distance control. Many of their issues have to do with lack of low point control which is certainly an issue for everyone, but their lack of low point control is more glaring. I have found that practicing 15 yard shots with a 56 or 60* wedge with a nice rotation, brushing the turf...not digging, and swinging through the ball is probably as important, or more important than hitting tons of 7 irons on the range. It can be very frustrating because these shots require patience and cannot be executed consistently with jerky swings, all arms or wrists, and/or moving off the ball which changes the low point of the swing (thin & chuck). We get very used to trying to hit powerful full shots to the point whereby the brain becomes very impatient and wants to rush through a 15-20 yard pitch swing.

The other problem I see with 90+ golfers is lack of course management. They will be 180 out from a green and they'll pull out a hybrid and hit the ball 165 which brings bunkers and tough sidehill, downhill, uphill grassy flop shots into play. If they'd just hit the ball 130 and leave a 50 or so yard shot from short grass they'd be far better off until their greenside short game is stable enough to manage the touch shots.

I know for certain the 90's or 100 golfer could break 90 very quickly even with a moderately improved course management combined with an improved short game and improved putting.

Welcome to the Members' Forum, @Dogger 2112!! We hope to hear from you often with questions and comments as you progress.

As you head towards the off-season, consider taking advantage of the Indoor Training Program as that will help you sharpen your skills from the comfort of your home.

Also, please keep in mind the V1 Swing Video Analysis - an effective and inexpensive service that I highly recommend to everyone in the school. This enables me to put my eyes on your swing and offer some very specific observations and corrective action plans if applicable. I liken it to bringing your swing into the shop for a tune-up or minor repair. Scheduling one on a quarterly basis for preventive maintenance will do wonders for keeping things humming along nicely, and it's also a great tool for pinpointing and resolving any issues that arise. The process involves downloading the free V1 app and then submitting two videos to me through the app - one down-the-line (captured from your stance line, not the target line) and the other face-on. You'll find more information about the V1 Analysis halfway down this page on the Saguto.Golf site.

Additionally, you might consider posting your swing videos in the Forum's Video Analysis Room. While I don't personally review these as it conflicts with my V1 service, you may be pleasantly surprised by the knowledge base and helpfulness of this great community!

Thanks for posting, keep up the great work, and have fun out there!

Tom

First time post, I found Tom in May of this year because I was tired of doing the same thing and not getting any better. To be clear....I am terrible, but with the help of Tom's videos I am becoming less terrible :)

In May my H.I. was 44.7 and right now it is a 41.1.

Even though my index doesn't show it, I've made what I feel is great progress. B.T. (Before Tom) I was regularly maxing out my score in my league (double par) and now I still have a few holes where I max out, but I also have holes where I take a par, bogey or double bogey. I'm looking forward to an off-season of training so I can make a big jump next year. Tom's teaching is exactly what I needed!

Welcome to the Forum, @guilianor. I hope you'll be a regular participant in this great community that your fellow members have built!

I'm thrilled for your well-timed progress with your best golfing years lurking in the very near future! Thanks for sharing your success, keep up the great work, and most importantly - keep having fun out there!!

Tom

As a 58 year old, I have been dong the Saguto program for three months and have made great progress and added much more consistency to my game. Before Saguto Golf, I was shooting high 90's if I was lucky and low-mid 100's with handicap of 23+. Now shooting mid 80s to low 90's consistently on more difficult courses with my handicap down to 19. I know I will keep improving as Tom's methods get more embedded into my swing. For me, the key change that has made my contact more consistent is keeping weight on front side and quiet hands. My short game approach shots are much better too by keeping my arms straight and weight on front side.

Golf is now much more fun and looking forward to more great golf as I enter my retirement next spring. Thanks Tom.

Newbie to golf here. How do people know what their handicaps are, and what’s the difference between an official handicap and an unofficial one? Totally awesome reading all these comments. Glad to be apart of this community.

I was 15.2 when I started this program early this spring. I will say that when I first started I played some ugly golf the first couple of months. The ghosts of swings pasts kept creeping back in and old habits die hard. Was very uncomfortable over the ball and my shots felt weird. I kept at it because the crispy shots I did hit I knew it was working. My handicap shot up to 18, but I stuck with it, mainly because I didn’t hurt after a round. With the new swing my back and hips didn’t bother me at all. Currently at 13.5 and playing some of the best golf I’ve played in years and having fun playing.

Currently 16.9. Has fluctuated between 16.6 and 16.9 all year. totally frustrated. I've watched videos from Tom and a slew of other YouTubers. Tweaking this and that and has some successes but always inconsistent. Finally joined the monthly club. I'm only about a week in but been working like crazy so haven't played or practiced in about 8-9 days. I know I have a 10-14 somewhere in me. LOL

When I started with Saguto golf my H.I. was 27.4 I have gotten it as low as 17.7

But it has been a trip. I started in the school while our course was shut down for a month due to covid. I watched video for 2 weeks and practiced swings out in the grass behind our condo, which is right behind the second tee. When we reopened I played 8 rounds in 2 weeks and everyone of them was in the 80's.

Some low 80's and some high 80's, this coming from a guy who was only in the 80's when all of the planets lined up. Thought I had finally found the answer to this crazy game. Remember telling my wife I was never going to shoot in the 90's again and I was headed to the 70's. Big mistake the golf gods heard that and before I new it I was back in the 90's and even had a triple digit slap in the face.

Old habits came back to visit.😥 So I went back to school and went through the whole thing again starting with the grip. Things turned around as I got back in the flow. I have had ups and downs but going back to the school always helps.

My biggest problem was no patience, if it didn't work right away I was messing with it. Tom put out a great video about patience about a month ago and it really hit home. Another thing is I wasn't putting in the time practicing the drills. I would just go out and play. A few weeks ago he put out a video with the alignment stick half way down your club and it hit your side every time you screwed up. I really enjoy doing this drill and it has made a difference. I know this post is getting a little long, but Tom has made golf so much fun. He is the real deal and the best out there IMHO what a great value. I had driven up to Myrtle Beach for a lesson with him 10 days ago, it was pouring rain😀 but that did not stop him from figuring out what I was doing wrong and correcting it. I felt I was hitting my irons great, getting good distance but getting a fade, which I thought was because of my age (73) and some injuries I had to my right shoulder over the years. Never could do a push draw. Well he put me on the right path and gave me a couple of drills to do. When I got back home here in Florida I practiced Tuesday and Wednesday, went out Wednesday

evening and shot 39. Struggled on Friday with a 89, and then on Saturday had a 84 with 2 triple bogeys 😒 balls in the water on each hole. Our course is 50% water and water comes into play on 17 holes. Low and behold I was hitting a push draw for the first time in my life. What a beautiful thing. Even before the lesson I had 3 rounds in the 70's in the last 4 months. Thanks to Tom I am now playing 5 days a week something I never could do before I started in the school. Like others have said in the forum, it takes time and you have to put in the work and give it

a chance. You will have ups and downs but don't give up. I need to get more consistent and that is what I am working on now. I feel confident now that every time I hit the course I will be in the 80's and will get a few of those rounds in the 70's on the days when it is "KFC" all day long. Thanks Tom you will never know how much fun you have brought into my life.

10.9 now was 19 when I first started learning and practicing S&T

I don't have an official handicap but my app does track it unofficially. It currently has me at 22.2. When I started the school, I think last November, I was certain I was never going to break 100

Currently off 8.5. Was up to 10.8 from 6.4. New WHS is a bit of a roller-coaster at the moment as I only have 6 cards from the last 15 months due to the pandemic and having to join a new club. All my historic data went 😥

Been a Saguto golfer since January 2021 and I'm now in a good place after some "twists and turns and periodic setbacks!"

My goal for 2022 is to get back to my lowest of 5.5

7.3 here. Playing for 61 years and learned to score well with a lot of faults. Recently filmed my swing and it was an embarrassing eye-opener. If I sent it to Tom, he would need a barf bag! Now I KNOW what needs work. Decided to redo Chapter 3 - The Backswing. It takes a LOT of work (for me), but I'm seeing results. Strongly suggest everyone go over..and over..and over that chapter

That's some dramatic improvement, @allyugfb & @kipheeg! Definitely a testimony to your embracing the process and putting in the necessary work.

Kipheeg, your statement "The program works but you have to do the work and there will be twists and turns and periodic setbacks. Keep at it!!!" ought to be the mantra for everyone in the school. Very well said!!

Allyugfb, I'll go ahead and pin your post to try to draw some added attention to it.

Cheers!

Tom

14.6 here. Started at 19.1 at the beginning of the season in April. Had only broken 90 once in my life prior to joining the school this year and have already shot 4 scores below 90 this summer, with my lowest being an 81. The program works but you have to do the work and there will be twists and turns and periodic setbacks. Keep at it!!!