This is in reference to my rant about my utter lack of basic talent. I spend at least 8-10hrs a week at the range. I’m crazy passionate about golf. As I said I understand this takes time but after a few months I still can‘t into a proper backswing position. When I do, as I posted in video two ( I believe it’s a good position) all hell breaks loose and I cant make any decent contact with the ball. I’m just lost.
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Good question and oh what a rabbit hole. I would let ball flight, ball contact, and balance be the judge. Interesting enough I played the right side swing for a year. In that Motion, very much like the drill @Tom Saguto prescribes, weight is forward with body setup the lead side on the wall with a reverse k caused by a tuck of the right side since right hand goes on grip below the left. In the drill if 90% forward the s&t procedure becomes incredibly close to the right side swing (Rod Pampling was their model for a long time). In that position where the lead side is on a wall it’s really more holding position vs sliding because you are already covering the ball. The do not prescribe a big effort to open the hips, rather to hold position and “shape” as they call it to allow the club to swing on the correct inside out path. I believe S&t is superior as a swing theory because the side bend and extension allows for more speed as it uses the leverage created by the body, not purely an arm swing. My opinion is, your lead hip Can only slide so far forward before a turn is automatic. But that’s not something I think about or concern myself with at all, so it will be interesting to see Tom’s thoughts.
In order to slide during the downswing, the lead knee must remained flexed, but in a split second the lead leg commences a push off from the ground. Thus there's a millisecond for the hips to move laterally before rotating.
So what's the actual slide movement? Does it start with "Hogan Hips", or the slide is "pre-done", then the only remaining move is pushing off the ground with the lead leg on the downswing? Or, is it a "hip bump", not so much a slide because a slide sounds like a more pronounced movement vs. a bump.
In the new Golf Magazine, Korda is featured and there's a picture of her coach crouching behind her with a club such that before she starts the downswing, he nudges her hips forward with the club, like a bump move. But when I watch Korda's swing in real time, the move happens so quickly it's almost impossible to see a pronounced movement. If anything it looks more like a bump move immediately followed by a push off of her lead leg.
I have seen plenty of guys on the range working on sliding. Most overdo the move to the point that by the time they're halfway through the slide, the club is already at the ball.
@GolfLivesMatter @Tom Saguto I have always leaned toward model swings with less hip opening like Greg Norman.
So yes, post up and push back enables more snap. That’s why long drive competitors have a front foot that drives up and back so hard it looks like the step in a bucket. It’s the brace for snapping the club past the ball.
@Vinsk - Which hand/arm feels like the dominant one to you in your golf swing - trail (left) or lead (right)?
I will try this. It’s true I’ve never really focused on hand path.
Thanks Russell. I’m still cutting grass. The enormous lack of talent is a struggle for me. Even my grip is uncomfortable. I see the blade of grass and it’s almost hit and hope. No proprioception, minimal control of the club. Feel isn’t real and I completely accept that fact. Problem is when something I try feels totally different, video shows it isn’t. When I do make a change on video, I feel nothing. Like the two ball drill. Without the 2nd ball, shank. With it, nice chip. Feeling? Identical. I’m of course going to keep at it. And I very much appreciate all your help. I really wish Tom was doing in person lessons again. I’m much better with direct instruction.
Speaking of ‘shoulders in a circle’ , it’s definitely seen here. Notice the shoulder line at the backswing and impact. I’m sure many, including me, don’t have our shoulders maintain this circle.
I have the same issue, but to a lesser extent. So when my backswing starts, my lead shoulder moves downward towards the ball...good. But as the backswing progresses, my lead shoulder moves parallel to the ground, or travels on a line to the trail side. I don't know how to explain this easily, but if I drew a digital line that follows your lead shoulder, it would first go down, then we would see a horizontal line towards your trail side as the club reaches the top. This movement flattens the shoulders and sends the club too far inside, and it happens VERY quickly, at least for me.
IMO, we want our lead shoulder to continue down, like on a 45* arc to the bottom point from address vs. going down for a short period on a 45* arc, THEN it travels along a line to the top, or it flattens out to a 0* arc at the top of the backswing. The final 0* arc pushes your head upwards because your lead shoulder is too high. I hope that makes sense. Here are two pictures of a pro at address, then at the top. Check out the arrow line relative to the golf bag in the background. The arrow line drops a LOT. In most amateur swings the arrow line barely moves downward.
For me, the shoulder rotation is not optimal. It seems the lead shoulder rotates down to start, but then travels "along a line", or on a flat plane to the top. In other words, the lead shoulder does "go down" to start the backswing, but then travels "across" to the top. I can see it in the chip shot videos...whereby the club is traveling too far inside and low. I can also see the head rising up on the full swing which means the lead shoulder is too high.
As for the full swing video, the club is more flat at the top and thus the shoulders are too flat. This will cause a more "glancing blow" at the ball vs. a more upright swing which occurs when the lead shoulder continues down, or the trail shoulder continues up, or no flattening and no head bobbing up on the backswing. Watch the head in the video.
The "flattening" move is very common for folks who are used to lifting the club because they are used to the lead shoulder coming up into their chin at the top...it's a "comfort food" position. Watch Tom. His lead shoulder is well under his chin at the top, and his backswing plane at the top is not flat by any means, and as stated before, very close to Tiger Wood's backswing plane. Nobody every accused Tiger of having a flat backswing. LOL.
My 2 cents.
You have a minor sequence problem. That’s it. You are getting close. When you put the second ball down, you still need to cut the grass. The key is figuring out where you have to direct the cut for a pure strike. Once you do that, you forget about everything else other than cutting the grass. 1. Feel like you go back, keep your back to the target and swing your arms down. 2. Let the arm swing pull your shoulders around.
Remember, when cutting grass you have to picture both the blade of grass you will slash through and the direction you want to cut. Get very specific with your intentions. 1. For this drill, always assume your target is parallel to your toe line. 2. For the first swing, you see the blade of grass and cut through it making a divot that is 45 degrees from inside to outside. 3. Same but now 22.5 degrees 4. Same, but now 11 degrees 5. Same in to out, but now 5 degrees Then start going the other way. 6 straight 7. 45 degrees outside in 8. 22.5 outside in 9. 11 outside in 10 5 outside in. Basically you are just swinging, hitting the ground and cutting grass and progressively going from very inside out to barely inside out. Then the other way. Here’s the thing, you will not roll The club low and inside when you have the intention of cutting grass at 45 degrees outside in. So, as long as you get yourself into position to accomplish the task of cutting grass on the desired path, you can Jim Furyk the hell out of the club and it will work. Side bar: Though you need to forget the tech details and rid yourself of hitting positions in order to enjoy the game…your understanding is mixed up. The issue is, a golf swing is not a bunch of isolated static positions. Physics…when you put a club in motion, it has mass. For every action…equal and opposite…cutting this short, if you roll inside, the club doesn’t stay inside waiting to swing from inside out. When the mass of the club swings low and inside, the momentum has to go somewhere. It can’t keep going deep Behind you because your bicep Hits your chest…where does it go? Usually up. The inside roll usually pairs with an upward lift and then, any lift requires and equal and opposite lowering on downswing BEFORE the body and shoulders start unwinding. If you do the opposite, the club starts to come up the plane at or just outside your hands when club is parallel to the ground, well, the club can’t keep going up, so it typically reroutes to back and inside. Ok, physics tied to momentum of the club dictate that low inside makes it harder to sync a downswing coming from inside. That being said, if you are a little low and under, it’s not necessarily the end of the world. EXCEPT Low roll inside creates another problem beside momentum of the club. It creates a club face condition which is super open. If the club face opens a bunch on the backswing, then it has to close an equal amount on the downswing. Let’s just say that club face control can be difficult and adds more timing. When the face gets super open, your brain knows that the face is open (especially if you hit one off the planet right). To fix that, the right shoulder goes high, swing over the top to try and get the face in the ball…this move is shanksville all day long. You can make any move work, but for every flaw, you have to insert a counter move to even it out. It’s far easier to start in more neutral positions. Get some video of cutting grass. See where you have the club for each cut (each cut that actually matches desired swing path).
Great advice......hang in there.
For me starting on the KFC not too long ago it was about getting the feeling. definitely way awkward on the range the first swings and I was like this is never going to work or feel right. Took a breath, like Russell said slowed way down and just started focusing on point of contact. Then increased everything. It might of came together a little quicker for me but for me was uncluttering the brain, getting the feel and very little thinking(swing keys after setup).
For me the KFC is coming because of KS(keeping it simple).
Again hang in there!!!!!!
Thank you @Russell Hogue, PhD ! I will tailor my practice to this routine. I didn’t mean to say Tom was in the wrong position. He was doing a drill that helps us make a proper takeaway and not yank the club inside which is what I do. I was just saying that despite being in that position Tom still manages to hit the ball quite fine. I did this drill and felt like the only way to hit the ball from that position is outside to in. My confusion is if you start the club with the club head outside the hands ( not yanking it inside) and only take it back let’s say two feet….doesn’t that inevitable cause an out to in stroke? This is just brainstorming. I’m gonna let this position stuff go as you recommended and start cutting some grass! Thanks again! Cheers!
Finally, while cutting grass, 1. Take a cut that has the divot going from left to right, one that goes straight down the line, then one that goes from right to left. Those different divots represent different swing paths. Once you can do that, you can use your book knowledge to help shape shots the way you would like.
Hello KFC enthusiasts! Well, I wish I had good news. I’m really struggling guys. Nothing is coming around for me. Please understand I’m not talking about simple mis-hits. I’m in a vicious cycle of do a drill with nothing but shanks. Try a slo, medium, normal speed swing only to see I only hit it well because all my old flaws were still there. I can’t hit a 10yd chip without shanking or completely missing the ball. Here’s a still from one of Tom’s drills. As you can see he’s coming down in the death zone.
I understand this is just a drill. But how the heck am I going to make contact from this position if I can’t even do it when I route the club properly? I’m so confused with the takeaway as well. If it’s just a swing without manipulation, why do we start the club outside the path we intend to swing down on? Back and around? But the proper seems to me to be out, then back then inside to out. Sorry guys…I’m really a mess.
I know feel isn‘t real. So how can we know if something feels awkward it means we’ve made a change? I’ve done swings that feel incredibly bizarre and awkward only to look on video and see that I’ve changed nothing. I’m so discouraged right now. Spent three hours on the range and shanked every swing and every drill. I’m lost.
I didn't read this entire thread with all the feedback and I'm sure there is good info. From the first video it appears you're spinning your hips without the lateral hip movements. Hence the pull. If you are looking to make good contact maybe shorten things up. Keep the arms straight, lead arm parallel to ground and concentrate on compressing the ball. My personal philosophy is that the more you back swing the more things can go wrong on the way down. (casting, early extension, etc...)
For me, I've added a LOT of backswing extension, to the point where my trail shoulder is closer to the target than my lead shoulder at the top. This has solved a lot of problems because the extension piece is (for me) an absolute must have. It's not easy because it feels uncomfortable given the length of my swing, and it requires stretching...a lot of stretching. Plus, the torque build up with an extended backswing automatically causes my lower body to unleash first. "Buttons facing the sky" is my thought now, and on all shots with full swings.
Without extension I was always fumbling with "sliding my hips" or "hips first" downswing. It didn't ever really work, and when it periodically did, it was simply too manufactured of a movement to be repeatable.
My swing is much more vertical than it was 2 months ago. My angle of attack is steeper and I'm taking bacon strip divots again. At the top, I look more like Justin Thomas than Sergio Garcia. Some can play flatter swings, but not me. I have gained 10-15 yards on irons and 25-30 on driver with extension. Left shoulder DOWN is a must with extension, otherwise it turns into a right sided swing mess.
The thing about S&T is I believe many overlook the extension piece and thus get into "too flat", shorter, overly controlled swings. I am posting a new thread about the so-called conventional swing vs. S&T, and what "shift and lift' means, all in my opinion of course. And as usual, it's a small book vs. a couple of paragraphs! LOL
Thanks Russell. I get what you’re saying. But I’m nowhere near ready to think about different backswing positions for certain shots. I’m just trying to develop the basic mechanics necessary for a crispy KFC shot to my target. Tom hits hundreds of shots into his net on his YT videos. I’m not ready for fade, low fade, high draw, etc. I’ll get there, but just want to learn and ingrain his fundamentals for now.😀
Btw - your video taker might have been right “it was perfect”. :) But the question is, perfect for what? The position in the backswing will change depending on the intent for the shot. So in order for you to decide if it’s perfect, it depends on what you want the ball to do. :) Just think of it like this, if you were throwing a pop fly, your arm and body would be in a different position than if you were trying to spike a ball into the ground. A golf swing is the same way. You need your backswing to put you into position to complete the desired task on the downswing. THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB ON THE RANGE, is to have a very specific target on every shot. Only after you have the video tied to a specific task, can you make meaningful change. Otherwise you are playing golf swing…and you are setup for years of frustration.
Here’s an example of the club coming into the ball. Now, I was specifically working on a fade in this picture so the club face is super wide open. But you get the picture. Most golfers come into impact with the club shallowing out and getting down to the trail elbow plane. The key, however, is that the positions aren’t manufactured by thinking about the position. Instead, focus on a task that makes it show up correctly. 1. Give yourself a task. Hit the ball to shortstop. 2. Review the video and see where the club was. 3. Change the task, further left or right…until you find a task that caused the right positions. When you feel like you are hitting to the shortstop, you won’t actually do it. Once you get the feel that causes the positions to show up, you will also see a ball flight that is desirable…and then your brain can say “oh, my swing to the shortstop causes a little baby draw right to the target.” So that’s what it feels like for you to hit the shot.
I didn’t draw the line…😳
Vinsk, I think there may be a flaw in your understanding based on the line you drew. The club doesn’t swing into the ball on the same line through the back shoulder. That path would be incredibly steep. When you are swinging down, the club should dissect your trail forearm. Now, I wouldn’t get too twisted about positions anyway. When you have the correct intentions, the club and body tend to show up where they are supposed to be. . . Versus trying to swing and hit positions, I suggest giving different tasks and see which task makes the club show up. As an example, line up square to the target. Place three quarters about 12 inches in front of the ball. One ball in line with shortstop, one directly at second base, third to the second baseman. If you have the task of swinging through the ball and toward the shortstop quarter, what happens? Do that for each…on video…see where the club shows up. Your backswing has one purpose, to match your task. Your backswing goes to a different position if you are swinging to the shortstop vs second baseman. The question is, which task makes the club show up where it needs to be (dissecting your trail forearm coming down into impact)?
Thank you all so much! Beside all my woes I can say without question this is the best instruction/program I’ve come across. @Tom Saguto thank you for all you do and continue to do!
@Nocona Colt Abernathy, @Russell Hogue, PhD, @GolfLivesMatter, @Gerry_Lager - Any feedback?
@Vinsk, while I don't get into any specific swing video analysis here, I agree with @Ronald Burkholder that you may want to cut back on this position-driven segmented swing and the downswing pumping motions for the reasons he cited. I know you are doing the drill I gave you in the V1 - and you appear to be executing it quite well - but the intention is for the drill to ultimately transition into a flowing motion. So let's try this now that you're getting the club into a much better position at the top compared to where you were previously: I want you to "feel" this top-of-backswing position. Then just put yourself there without any thought about positions and let it go. Have a look at this recent YT episode for more about this.
With regard to Ronald's point about the hip action in the downswing, it is indeed considerably more than the little "bump" conventionally taught. Those hips must continue their lateral targetward slide through impact - with the upper torso and head remaining in place to preserve the center of our swing circle - in order to keep the path shallow and approaching the ball from the inside. Have a look at the PGA Tour pro "feels" specific to this excerpted from the S&T book below. There are lessons and drills on this critical move in the school.
Beyond that, yes - it would be helpful for your fellow members if you can also post a face-on video.
Yes, I think your position is good there. A little more shoulder down may be useful also. Keep trying different swing thoughts and you’ll find a groove that works for you.
Ok. I hope I’m not being annoying, lol, but the reason I’m not doing lower body action is Tom says I should start the downswing with my lead arm. I’ve had an issue with turning in my trail knee too much so I’m trying to stay more quiet. Now for the hip bump, maybe it’s not seen in the video but I’m keeping almost all my weight forward and I start with a slight hip bump at setup. Honestly I think if I tried a hip bump I’d fall over…lol. But I agree with the segmented swing maybe not being the best for me. Question please: In my pump video, do you think my position is good but maybe add a bit more shoulder tilt? Thank you!
OK. Understand, but don't be concerned about the result if you decide to do the segmented takeaway to the top and then hit a ball from there. When you take it back and get to the top and then pump a couple of times and then hit the ball you are ingraining a shoulder initiated downswing. Do like you see the pros do. They rehearse the takeaway (Justin Thomas, Mike Weir, and others), or the full back swing (Jordan Spieth) but then put the club down behind the ball and start the real swing from there. You can see really well that your pump at the top doesn't involve your hips at all. So you aren't getting the lead hip moving forward toward the target. If you want to try hitting a ball from a pump at the top, make sure the pump is initiated with a little hip bump. I think you'll see that little hip bump sets the club into the "slot" nicely and it moves even more weight forward, which leads to crispy contact.
I hope you get a few people to take a look at these videos. Here is what I saw. The first one looked like a shank, but for me, it is very hard to hit a good shot using a segmented swing like that. So, I will tell you what I see in the second swing, which again was segmented and not a continuous motion. Nevertheless, it was hard to tell from this view, but it appears you are not getting the important hip movement toward the target in the down swing. To me it appeared to be a downswing initiated from the shoulders with the hips whipping around late. I couldn't see where the ball went, but it looked like a pretty good pull, maybe a pull hook. You appear to have a good hip turn in the back swing. I think you might try getting the lead shoulder pointed more toward the ball in the back swing. I just say that because your shoulder seems to be pointed down by only about 20 degrees or so, and I believe most of us trying to learn this swing never get the shoulder down enough.
I suggest you stop with the segmenting of the swing. Don't try to hit swing positions. The swing is too fast for the brain to try to hit perfect positions throughout the swing. Just get into position properly, with a proper grip and make a swing with one thought. You can try "shoulder down", "quiet hands", "weight forward, forward, forward", "hands in", or any of the "feels" Tom addresses in the Feels segment of the curriculum.
Try this and post some more videos both face on and down the line. Also, I believe you get a video easier to analyze if you use the IPhone in a horizontal position rather than a vertical position.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing the other guys on here take a swing at your videos as all of us can learn from each other.
Good luck and keep at it.