All In One Drill

@Russell Hogue, PhD - I think I've beyond exhausted my available inventory of thoughts in this thread. At some point we've just gotta throw a bunch of rocks on the ground and figure it out for ourselves! 😆 (Consulting video as much as possible, but that should go without saying.)

Of course I agree that S&T is superior, and that extension and upward thrust of the hips through impact is indeed a seriously powerful move.

No doubt. On my good days I am hitting the ball long. I just ordered a loft and lie vending machine. I plan on going through the bag and testing lie angles and also adjusting loft to dial In ideal launch angle, spin rate and descent angle. Hopefully won’t snap my clubs figuring it out.

@Russell Hogue, PhD Sounds interesting. Will be curious to know how that works out for you. (BTW, I'm guessing you meant to say "bending machine", though that would make for a very interesting vending machine?! 😎)

@GolfLivesMatter - The S&T book describes the motion in detail. How best for you to accomplish it is for you to determine. You've certainly got plenty of options to get there, from presetting most of it through Hogan's Hips/T2T, to You Need More Lateral Hip Slide (in Fixing Common Swing Problems), various Training the Downswing lessons in the school, the "Watermelon Drill", YT downswing episodes including Forward Forward Forward, the First Move, and Hogan's Most Important Part of the Swing, Wi's and/or Baddeley's "feels", etc.

Or perhaps you already naturally have enough of the lateral built into your swing and you don't need to focus on it?

The Aaron badley feel is one of my biggest swing keys. When I am taking the club back, I want my right pocket moving toward the target and continuing to go that way. You can’t keep weight back if this move is right. It’s beautiful.

@Russell Hogue, PhD - To your most recent comment, I understand what you are saying with regard to the upper body not wanting to disassociate from the lower. There are, however, different ways of going about it. For example, Tailbone2Target, which gets the hips almost as forward as they need to be much earlier in the swing. If you get that move working then you really do only need a little "bump" in the downswing.

@Russell Hogue, PhD - LOL - seems like our replies are crossing each other! Yes - what you described is the T2T move that I just replied with.

@Tom Saguto LOL. Actually, the dialogue has helped me to better understand the details, and as such, I have a new question:

There's many videos about "hip movement" in the golf swing. That stated, is hip movement in and of itself a movement, or does the post-up of the lead leg drive hip movement?

Those are two very different things in my mind. It seems to me hip movement is dependent upon the lead knee push off, thus the push off is the independent variable. Couples extends his lead knee very early in his downswing, and as such his belt buckle is pointed at the target at impact. I don't think the lead knee can stay flexed AND open the hips, so one has to happen for the other to happen.

Plus, to get the right side tilt at impact, it seems to me the lead knee push off creates that tilt. I don't think I can tilt with a flexed lead knee.

Now we all need a room. LOL

@russ

@GolfLivesMatter Below is from the S&T book. Have a look at Chapter 4. The Hip and Leg Action part of the downswing begins on page 72.

@GolfLivesMatter @Tom Saguto It’s funny, I have read so much about the golf swing it literally makes me sick how much I know about different swing theories. It also occasionally causes problems. I shot 39 last night in league, with a double bogey on a hard par 4. Thing is, as I got over the ball, I literally had so many thoughts going on, but I didn’t step off and reset. I topped a driver into the water. Haven’t done that in a long time. But as I stood over the ball, “OB left…aim further right…don’t over turn this…no wait, rip it…easy swing….was my intermediate target that bled of grass or the other one?” Holy HELL. Lesson learned. Visualize shot from behind ball. Once settled…no other thoughts other than release over intermediate target.” That’s exactly the reason I don’t like talking about all of the technical details for myself any more. I don’t mind sharing or discussing to help further understanding, but I much prefer to simplify things and use analogies that help see the motion.

If I tried making that move I would be in the hospital for a month.

@Tom Saguto LOL. His backswing is interesting because he basically lifts the club to the top and puts it in place along with a giant shoulder turn. I have actually tried this and for some reason it works because it is simple to execute. More on that below.

Long ago I went to a Couples golf demo. He was hitting all kinds of shots and people were mesmerized by watching his swing. Then he did full swings with all of his clubs, from driver to SW, and then he asked the crowd what was different in each swing. Many said "you swing faster with the driver, and much slower with the SW". He said "nope, each swing is exactly the same, but the club length makes you think I'm swinging faster with the driver vs. the SW".

Then he said something like, "I don't think a whole lot about the backswing because I am looking to set the club at the top so I know where it is to start the downswing". And he did mention, even way back then, that he didn't pay much attention to his hip movement in the backswing.

Then we went out (lucky me) and played 6 holes with him. He would hit shots and everyone would say "nice shot". Then after about the 3rd hole he said "you don't need to say nice shot, I hit 'em all like that". LOL. He was super great that day, and even gave away many sets of golf clubs to the young kids who attended.

@GolfLivesMatter That's awesome!! Lucky you indeed!!

Are you right or left handed? Don’t mean how do you swing the club. How about this? Let’s assume your dominant hand is your trail hand. If you focus on the dominant hand, all you want to do is use the dominant hand (pretending the club is a sword) and slash through the grass. If you use your dominant hand, it will probably be much easier to feel control and have better hand eye coordination.

This is part of my issue…lol. I golf, bat, throw and bowl left handed. I write, frisbee, play tennis right handed.

Some people (my son is one of them), like the visual of pretending a nail is going into the ball. Use your dominant hand and the club becomes the hammer…just hammer the nail into the ball. The nail is angled so that you would be driving it through the ball into the ground. One other visual for you to try. Setup to the ball. Look down at your hands and from your eyeline, your hands appear to be in a spot along the toe line. Using your dominant hand, forget the ball, focus in your hands. Slash the sword, but focus on letting your hands swing to the point in your toe line where you saw them. This is an aiming point concept. Some people have trouble doing the aiming point focusing on the clubhead and instead benefit from focusing on the hand path. Your shank is quite simple. Your hands don’t return or swing through their original spot but they move out toward the ball. You won’t hit the shank if your hands swing though (or to the aiming point).

Perhaps, @Vinsk, but there's no reason we - including you - can't.....😎

(It sure does simplify things, right?)

@Vinsk i wouldn’t get overly concerned about positions, but know you want to work towards what good looks like. :) In other words, you can strike the ball excellent with all kinds of moves, but the further you get from a model swing the more manipulations are required. For every move that takes the club out of position there has to be a counter move to get it back into position so that you can release the club on the intended swing path. My thought is what I already outlined. Start with the right intention, to release the club effortlessly on the desired swing path. You can see from your divot if you cut the grass in the right direction. Now, get a video of the release pattern being correct. Use that as your starting spot (model). Compare that to what happens when the path doesn’t match what you wanted. So, if you want a release going to 10, but when you look at the divot it actually goes to 1 then that’s an example of the bad swing…compare them and see what you are doing differently to identify your personal mistakes. Finally, use your good swing and compare that to a pro that is similar height, weight, build. Where are the differences? Work toward the pro model while maintaining the ability to cut grass in the intended direction.

Just a quick note, the shoulders staying in a circle check is from a front on view.

@GolfLivesMatter I agree that the "hit" instinct is the killer of many swings. It's easily noticeable in many amateurs who have a great looking practice motion only to subsequently go into swing seizure when a ball appears in front of them.

Great video, by the way. It clearly shows how much of this "dark swing sorcery" known as Stack and Tilt the best in the world actually embrace. Don't see very much of that two-plane "drop it in the slot" move anymore, right? Hmm.....

That’s a really good assessment. Further, if you look at things like, how fast the hands are swinging in a pro swing, it’s shocking to see that the vast majority of people are actually capable of swinging their hands just as fast. Further, often when you watch kids learning to play the game they are very good at simply copying what they see. As a result if you have them watching pro’s swings it’s amazing how quickly their swings become very pro-like. As for your intention comment, hitting through the ball vs hitting at the ball. In my opinion this is one of the greatest differences in distance. There is a massive difference in hitting through the ball and feeling like the fastest part of the swing happens past the ball, compared to hitting at the ball and trying to make the fastest part of the swing at the ball. For someone that moved the club pretty well, you may see a 30 yard difference in distance. The reason for that is pretty obvious when you watch the swing. Ultimately as the club seeks alignment with the lead arm, it gets further from the body. As the lever lengthens, the club starts to slow down. In fact every player actually sees the club head slow down from peak speed before impact, but pro’s make that super close to the ball, whereas an amateur May see peak speed 3 feet before impact. In my opinion, this is completely driven by intent. And having the wrong intentions or the wrong ideas about what’s supposed to happen is a sure way to sabotage the swing. Example, if your goal is to hit the ball. The most efficient way to do that is to come over the top. Further if the goal is to “hit the ball”, it causes a chain reaction of bad bio-mechanics, over-the-top, club throw away, which leads to flipping, coming out of posture (early extension), which also leads to flipping. Net-net, having the wrong intention causes an entire series of events which is evident in most golf swings. 100% with no instruction, take a video of @tom saguto and get yourself on video copying his motions. Before long you will be on a better path than trying to figure out all of the science behind the golf swing and worrying about all the “right positions”. If you believe to hit the ball higher, you have to “get under it” then a flip or scoop is likely.

@Russell Hogue, PhD Probably about 4 years ago I was on the range with a guy who had the typical weekend golfer swing, 20 hcp golfer. Low at the top, some early extension, very little lower body engagement, not much shoulder turn, etc.

While we were on the range the head pro came over to us and we got to talking about how Tiger swings the club. The pro had an iPad video of Tiger hitting an iron. So after looking at the video, the guy started trying to describe Tiger's swing, but he wasn't describing it very well.

So instead of trying to continue telling us about Tiger's swing, the guy grabbed a club and demonstrated. The most ironic thing on Earth was he took the club back nearly like Tiger, got to the top like Tiger then swung the club in a very similar manner like Tiger (or many other pro's). His "demo" swing looked NOTHING LIKE his regular swing. Now, would I say his swing was exactly like Tiger's, or a pro, no, but nonetheless it was not even close to his "real swing". It had fluidity, speed, a sense of effortlessness.

So then he said "that's how I see Tiger's swing". The pro said "why don't you swing like that?". He said "it's too hard". Plus he said something to the extent that without the ball he feels much freer to swing the club.

So yes, there is no doubt the kids who watch and replicate some pro's swing start to play better much faster than those who over-analyze every single movement. Imagine having to grind through every possible movement to simply walk on a straight line vs. just walking on a straight line?

In the book "The Inner Game of Golf" by Gallwey, Gallwey talks about everyone having a creative side, then an opposing authoritarian instructional side, and how the authoritarian side ruins golf swings. Thus in my opinion, the guy's whimsical, creative side was "allowed to take over" and thus he was free to demonstrate a swing he's seen a million times, but then his authoritarian side stepped in and said "you can't do that".

@Russell Hogue, PhD Wow! Thanks Russell! I went back out and did the 10o’clock path with the alignment stick. Hit nice chips and not one shank. I didn’t film this session but when I go again I will. I followed the stick to ensure I didn’t yank it inside. Felt so nice to hit crispy chips again. I’ll continue with the grass cutting drill. I did take a no ball swing and it felt really awkward. I shrugged it off and came home. Just happy to have improved so much after this morning’s disaster! Thanks again!

100% in relation to your body setup, your release should be 10o’clock. For now don’t get too worried about direction. That’s the next click. You may notice that those chips, pitches are going exactly in line with the 10 o’clock swing path (left of desired landing spot). That’s ok and expected. First things first. Repeatable solid contact.

Thank you! I admit I’ve changed my grip a bit by following @Tom Saguto ‘s grip section. It still feels awkward but I know the positions are correct. Can you decipher what that strange move I do just as the club comes down that seems to throw the hosel to the ball? I honestly am feeling quiet hands and arms yet something making me tweak the path and hosel bossing it.

Well, you aren’t supposed to have “quiet hands and arms.” The arms have to swing down actively. If the arms hang out trying to be pinned against the chest, passive, then the shoulder turn pushes the club outside. If the arms work down the target line, even if the shoulders work out, it has very little influence over club head direction. This is a big challenge with golf instruction. Better players talk about passive arms and hands, but the can only feel passive If things are in sync. When measured, the arms are actively separating from the chest and it happens earlier. When you go back and feel like you swing your arms down (keeping back to target), you won’t do it. The arms swinging down first, just creates a little more space. Once you get the feel of proper sequencing with arms getting down to the toe line, then you too will start feeling the passive feel.

@Vinsk @Ronald Burkholder ok, I just watched more closely. When you peeled them off, the club head went back fine and the moved out toward the ball instead of down. You should be cutting the grass to 10 o’clock. Instead of having the alignment rod pointed at the target, angle it to 10 on the clock…your focus is cutting grass to 10. It’s incredibly important to let the backswing get to a position where you feel like you can cut grass in that direction. Your club is in position to swing straight down the target line…but that is NOT how a ball flies straight. Please get video aligning straight to target, but swinging to 10.

@Vinsk don’t give up! Go back to the long course and make sure you have the fundamentals of grip, posture, arms straight, and ball position correct. Then start with half swings at 20% speed feeling the weight forward, forward, forward. Quiet hands back and through. Don’t move to a full speed swing until you are making crispy contact 9/10 times. Then make half swings at 50% speed. When you lose the crispy contact analyze what you did that swing and go back to 20% speed to get that crispy feeling back. Golf swing progress is not linear. There will be ups and downs in the journey. You just have to accept that. But with Tom’s instructions you have a roadmap to get back on track when you jump the rails.

Good luck!

@Vinsk buddy, I feel for you. Wish we were in the same town and I’d be happy to help you in person as it would only take a few minutes to get rid of the demons you are experiencing. Here’s my advice: 1. Forget everything about positions. Forget it all. There is a world of difference between book knowledge and playing golf. The book knowledge is important because it helps diagnose things after the fact. BUT, you can’t be thinking about hitting positions while playing golf. If you do, you are destined for many more range sessions just like the one you experienced. This is especially true worrying about back swing positions. There is nothing wrong with being a little inside and under the plane on the way back…as long as you get into a good position to release the club on the desired club path to match the shot you want to hit. So, let’s start with this. You have done drills so you know the basic swing motion/pivot. Without a ball, make the swing motion and use the club head to cut grass. That’s it. Swing and cut a nice patch of grass. BUT, on every swing, make sure you have a specific blade of grass you are going to cut through. Realize the sole of the golf club has one purpose, cut grass. You need to swing and cut grass until you are cutting through the desired blade of grass consistently. Ok. Once you are doing that…put a ball down, but forget about the ball. Pick a blade of grass right before the ball. Your job is to cut that blade of grass on the way to the target…the ball WILL be in the way. You are not TRYING to hit the ball. You are trying to cut grass and turf with the leading edge of the club. If you cut grass and the divot is going toward your intended line of flight…you will be shocked at how easily you can control the ball (without trying to). Your job is NOT to hit the ball. It’s to make a swing and cut grass going toward your target. This is why the first fundamental of snt is so important. If you can hit the ground and cut grass in the same spot every time…then hitting the ball will work. NOW, if the ball becomes the target. You will not hit the ground or cut the grass in a nice divot going toward where you want to send the ball. In that case you know. Why didn’t you hit a good shot? “I missed the ground/blade of grass). It’s really that simple. My advice. Quit playing golf positions. Instead give yourself a task to execute and watch how much better things come together.

Btw - this works regardless of how big the swing. Chip, pitch, half shot, full swing. IF your mind wonders from slashing through the specific blade of grass…forget the shot. It doesn’t matter because you lost focus. You can only count shots that you remained focused on the goal, slash through the grass. The entire stack n tilt system is setup to make it easier to be repeatable to cut the grass. But no matter which methodology you use, if you can’t master the first fundamental of hitting the ground in the same/desired spot…always going to be problems. Also, for your knowledge, you said Tom was out of position in the video. This is incredibly important to understand. 1. Camera angles must be exactly right to see a picture and draw conclusions. If the camera is inside of the hands, it will make the club appear very outside (or inside if the camera is outside of the hands). 2. The club position only matters relative to the desired swing path and shot shape. So, if you are hitting a fade, the path may be outside in…or a hook may be more inside. You have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions about 2d images. 3. Make sure as you are cutting grass, you get into a nice rhythm. Cut grass on the downswing, take a step forward on the backswing, cut grass on the downswing. Back and forth, feel the rhythm of cutting grass. The golf swing is a nice back and through swing…not a manufactured, hit every position chop.

Great comment. See my new post in General Discussions. It may not be entirely popular, but I think Tom would agree with the content.

@GolfLivesMatter looking forward to the new thread with some pictures or videos. Super interested in this as I too feel like a little more verticals move is helpful to me.