In a few hundred, my golf life story is a pretty consistent 45-degree slice. My Dad had the same problem and resigned himself to it, changing his setup to address 45 degrees left of target(!), with some success. For me lessons with the local golf pro were confusing, results temporary. The only lasting thing I found making sense was a study of John Redman's “Essentials of the Golf Swing” (1994). Copying his front-facing lead-hand grip, familiar for a musician like me (like holding a drumstick, you should try it out sometime for kicks). And, making a limited Tommy Armour III style backswing from his general tips: extending the lead arm in the backswing while drawing a straight line with the clubface, "pulling" the club forward through contact, hips always turning “as if in a barrel" - I got reasonably consistent contact with decent straight shots, maybe 75% of the time, as long as I kept in shape at the driving range.
@Tom Saguto, I love the system you are teaching, I get it. There's a lot that overlaps with Redman’s, which is why I signed up here. Your vids are exceptional teaching tools, your excitement is infectious. I can see how and why it all should work, because it’s a natural use of the physical body, therapeutic even if done correctly. But now after trying steadily over a few weeks to learn and apply piece by piece I seem to be coming to the same old 45 degree result, raising warning flags for me. WTF?
You'll see in these vids where I'm trying to apply the downswing sequencing drill (vid 6.11), after some careful review of other vids and application of other drills at the range about 6-7 times. Apologies for imperfect camera angles. *Occasionally* things start to work (see shots #4-5 in “Profile” vid), I don’t know how or why. But usually though they turn into that same frigging mortar-joint slice (shots #1-3 in “Profile”, #2 and #5 in “FaceOn”). Or dribbling worm-burners hooking the other way (#6 in “Profile”, #4 in “FaceOn”).
I’ve become a pretty patient guy over years, but at the moment this is extremely frustrating. What's wrong, what am I not getting? What to work on, what drills? What should it feel like, especially in the downswing, to properly prepare and make good clean contact, taking a divot after the ball? I have an outing with friends in about a week and a half, was hoping by then to at least have something I could rely on for a round or two, just be able to enjoy. This just won’t do, it's not even close.
I don't need to hit a driver 280 yards straight down the fairway, YET. Even something consistently reasonably straight, 140-180 with a 5-iron would be quite a welcome change from the past. Or, I just go back to my reheated leftovers of Redman/Tommy-III (“…hey guys, just call me ‘Chi-Chi’, ok?”). I’m getting pretty discouraged right now. Please let me know what you see and what you think I can do to continue here, including if I’m expecting too much too soon with these efforts so far. Waiting for some response with a little hope,
Eric
Profile vid (6 shots with a 6):
Face On vid (6 more shots with a 6):
Hey, any updates here?
@ericostling How's the swing/game been going?
Golf Terminator. LOTS of fun to be with out on the course...
Great dialogue, @ericostling and @danny! Yes - toss out those notions of "old" vs. "new" swing. When on the course, just play golf - not "golf swing" - with no more than one (preferably) or two (maximum) mechanical thoughts, and save the incremental swing work for the range.
And as for the various drills and aids, just make sure you don't turn into this guy...🤣
Actually @danny I'm doing just what you're saying in the vids I posted for the lesson with Tom. I'm holding shirtsleeves under armpits maintaining loose arms all with an alignment stick on the mat and a shortened backswing, the whole works. And even if it has benefitted from the drills somehow (which I think it has), "my old swing" is just that, it's entirely different. It's based on a principle of turning in place over the ball with roughly even weight distribution. Which would quickly turn into "over the top" if I could manage a full backswing using it, which I can't. There's even a little wrist flick when it's going well, you have to focus on very different muscle groups and movements to execute it, and so I almost have to "forget" S&T while in the midst of using it. Maybe once I get comfortable enough to use S&T on the course I'll try do a video comparison with both swings and post here for others interest and amusement.
Hi @ericostling,
I've recently come to a realization you just touched on. So, with all the work with drills and swing fixes, I was trying to bring those same tools onto the golf course. My realization is, that we probably shouldn't be doing that. Those effort are in the process of changing our swing. So, we use the drill to train our swing and when its time to play, we bring our improved swing to the game. We have a swing thought or two as a way of keeping in the groove of our new swing. However, in the end, it is our swing that we're changing and playing the game with. So when you say, "...using my old swing..." were you really using your old swing or, were using the new swing that's starting to feel as comfortable and engrained as your old swing? I think all your hard work is beginning to engrain better motions in "your swing" the one that is evolving!
All those drills you mention can be utilized simultaneously. There is no reason you can't have the tees under your arms, while maintaining loose arms, swinging under stick with a shortened backswing! I'm willing to bet, if someone had recorded your swing, on the course, you'd see a pretty different club path!
Keep up the great work!
[Sigh], so @Tom Saguto , I’m going to [order a V1 swing analysis lesson at this point. A lot is coming into place, but I feel like there’s something specific that I’m not getting. And I can’t tell from the various drills I've been using what to focus on or where to go to improve. Tee drill, loose arms, swing under the stick, short swing, regardless - **Everything**Goes**To The Right.**, it seems. Maybe it's a lot of impatience. Honestly though, even as a beginner I’d rather spend the money on a veteran pair of eyes that might spot something for me to focus on, versus several more buckets of balls and hours to likely reach a lesser result. That said, if anyone's been following, last week I did go out on the course for the group outing I mentioned at the beginning of this thread - using my old swing. For all the drawbacks, it worked better than it ever has in the past, because of all the work and tips and drill efforts I've been making here on S&T. I had a great time and plan to continue however I can.
Feeling that crispy impact is a great sign of progress, @ericostling, and yes - a necessary component in the process because now you know what you are aspiring to achieve consistently. And what you did with the gloves is a good drill for staying connected throughout the entirety of the swing, much like the Tee Drill below from the S&T book.
Well done!
Of course. Range baskets full of balls are perfect for setting an alignment stick. Like @Alan Studnicky, why didn't I think of that. (Then again, another problem starts when you run low and need to weigh it down with something else. Or fend off pesky staffers trying to collect every basket they can find to refill and bring back to the clubhouse. But I think I can figure out ways to handle those without bothering others here on this forum about it :) A further update, @Tom Saguto now I have really started to focus on the "Across the Line" problem drills. Because in the "unwind the club on the downswing" symptom (leading to blocks/hooks etc) I see you depicting what I'm still going to a lot on the top of the backswing. And then when you mimic the "tense arms" golfer and I started yelling "that's it! that's me! that's exactly what I'm doing!!!" (while trying not to bother others around in the office). This morning between keeping gloves under the arms for a few swings, experimenting with *really* *loose* *arms* (both chicken wing and connected) I managed to hit 1 or 2 shots that crisped straight and felt completely right, "ok, there it is, that's the goal". Watching Ben Hogan vids is also helping since his stance leads right to a proper swing like this so readily. More to come, I see how learning to feel the weight of the club and let it do the work matters so much...
Very nice, @ericostling. You will find that as long as we allow various body parts to "think" and "feel" during the golf swing it's going to be darn near impossible, as the swing initially is completely counterintuitive to what they want to think and feel. So we must endeavor to extract those little extra brains from these various body parts and enslave them to the correct motions. Then, after sufficient positive stimulus of crispy ballstriking bliss, they will finally become obedient and predictable - like Pavlov's Dogs.
By the way, someone recently mentioned using a range ball basket to hold an alignment stick when restricted to hitting off of mats. It may have been @Alan Studnicky - my apologies if not. Anyway, if your range has such baskets then perhaps you can make that work; if not, I'm sure you can find other creative ways of doing so.
@Tom Saguto your encouraging responses are very well taken, which I'm sure other students have said. And having watched some Ben Hogan videos I'm starting to really feel how to rely on using the hips over the arms throughout. At lunch I brought my alignment sticks to the range and figured out a way to setup the swing-under-the-stick drill using their grassless mats (a little tedious, not impossible). I'll look at the vid later but it became very clear that these elbows do not like being together yet. They think it will prevent the body getting to a full backswing, and the uncertainty starts to bring in the arms and hands on the downswing to 'correct' the club path, and this happens even if I manage to avoid hitting the stick. Finally I achieved a few good swings by focusing entirely on 'mashing' the elbows close together throughout, and left immediately, thinking something must have gone right on these good shots, let that feeling sink in.
@ericostling - Without getting into any kind of in-depth analysis, I will say that there already appears to be some dramatic improvement!
If you are consistently coming over the top, then you may need to focus on your lower body action in the downswing. Have a look at the content in the Downswing chapter of Fixing Common Swing Problems that is specific to Problem #1. There are several drills available in that section to help you work on this.
Looks like you're starting to recognize things in your swing! This is where the fun begins! The feel vs real in the swing is really remarkable. You'll think you're swinging around your body and the video can show something very different. Keep up this type of practice and you'll start to see and feel the difference!
Danny
Having looked at these pics again I’m guessing even this shortened swing is still going well over the top, and getting lucky when it crisps straight. and to go to both the tee drill and swing under the stick (which I’ll have to find some grass to do, not these mats hanging out on the asphalt base).
Wasn't able to upload images on the last post attempt for some reason, trying here with a different browser. Maybe the whole thing is still so off it's not worth splitting hairs? I'm sure there's plenty else for me to work on (except the orange Hanwha Eagles baseball cap from S. Korea, that's non-negotiable !) :
Another question: I have now started focusing on the 90% drill with limited backswing and hitting the ball. The ball still goes right a lot, however using this drill alone I've gotten to the point where I can now "feel"what's going to happen by the top of the backswing, even if I don't know why or how. But is it going to be worth trying out anything else without figuring something out here? I even filmed several shots, putting them side by side to try and catch something obvious. (Maybe I need to look at face-on which I'll try later). Does anything stand out obvious why the left-side shot will go straight and crisp and the right-side shot will go, well, right? Setup:
Backswing: right at Contact:
right after contact:
@Alan Studnicky , I will check out the tee drills you mentioned meantime, and go back to try another range practice.
"The views and comments of “standing on one leg” are not necessarily the views and opinions of original poster there of. Comments of such type are for informational purposes only and not to be construed as any part of the training methods or instruction taught on this forum or in the classes taught by the master himself, T. Saguto, Grand Master Golf Instructor."
Just covering myself there.
So here's an update, especially from your story @Alan Studnicky from hearing the instructor on the range. Having taken a few days with the "Get Out and Go Play" course videos, taking pics of my own setup and checking with Tom’s, I finally went to the range mats to work on the first few 90% drills with a short swing. It was only when I started to hit balls that were still consistently going right that I suspected something, and took it fully to a "100%" drill. Meaning, after setup I made myself lift the trailing leg a bit, keeping it in the air while swinging the ball to make sure the weight really was forward. And it wasn't, at first. The hip wasn't engaging nearly enough to maintain the weight in front, and it took some work to relax into it better. Certainly staying a on one leg guarantees you won't be dealing with problems shifting the weight during the swing! After this (with the trail leg back down) I still suspected something not feeling right, because I wasn't finishing with the arms together and club face 45 degrees to the sky as instructed in the drill video. Then I realized that my elbows always went MIA right after my backswing. Once I started to make the 45-deg positional finish the actual goal of the drill the ball started crisping straight, every time. Only 3-5 shots, that's all I had time for, with the careful work on preparing each one right, but every one, and I could feel it. Just a start, but seems like a real kernel that can be nurtured and built on with more practice and upcoming drills. I hope so, my elbows are definitely not used to staying together so long like this, it's uncomfortable which as you say @Tom Saguto is actually a good thing. Certainly a key discovery I didn't have before. I look forward to having more to report, hopefully soon with a little more practice.
Me neither. I use it a lot. The 5 has been re-shafted and good to go. I was on the driving range when it broke and it was such an interesting feeling hitting the ball and the shaft letting go. Felt so mushy. At least the ball went further than the head. And getting everyone on the driving range to stop hitting balls so I could fetch the head was fun, too.
Pretty cool. I thought I had the grip right awhile back and then went over it again and still had to correct it. How I ever hit the ball before is beyond me. lol. Good stuff. You'll get there!! I think I will, too, eventually. It's getting there. I just haven't been on the course that much and it's been a very wet July.
Oh, Tom, if you read this, when I was on the range and snapped my club there was an instructor teaching a new student. The student was an older guy but very new at golf or at least looked like it. I thought it was interesting that the instructor was trying to get the student the feel of hitting the ball. He had the student stand on the his lead leg only and swing at the ball. Overheard him say the trail leg was for balance only. No idea if he taught S&T or not but was really interesting to see. Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread.
"When life takes away your 5-iron, get another. Pronto. Or whack a 6." Personally I can't imagine doing a round without a 5 in the bag. And yes, I've been working on the grip (and stance posture) this past lunch hour. Focusing especially on the pressure point Tom mentions in the grip video (from folding the trail-hand palm pad over the lead-hand thumb). While new to me, that's also recognizable, I can both see and feel the rightness of it. Which will allow me to "own" my grip eventually in recreating the swing for myself. That's something I always insist on students getting to when learning any new material.
Hey, Eric. Welcome to the board and the courses. Not much to add from what everyone else has already said. I typically post a little more on here but lately my swing has taken a few steps back and I even broke my 5 iron. Man down!! It's taken a lot of abuse so not surprising. I've been doing Tom's classes for over a year. As you mentioned, I think you are expecting too much too soon. I did that last year when I started. You have to empty your tea cup and embrace the process. Take it slow. This is not done in a few weeks even though some manage to find improvement pretty quickly. This will take time. And then you will get better and then take a step or two back. Oh, that's a lot of fun when that happens. lol But it's all in Tom's courses and if you take your time, work through them (start with the grip!!) you will get it. But it's a process. Good luck!! (ps - the ceremony for the 5 iron was beautiful. Lots of flowers.)
@ericostling - You are absolutely not alone in two respects:
1) I would not have had to say it in several places if so many golfers were not skipping the building blocks and jumping around out of sequence!
2) In this fantastic community, where you can already see how fellow members are willing to take the time to help - even if it involves some "tough love" 😂 - and share their experiences!
I look forward to doing your V1 Analysis at the appropriate time.
And yes - you absolutely do owe us progress updates!..... 😎
Hi Eric,
I can't even tell how many times I've gone back to the beginning of the course... Sometimes it's just easier to start over than to to try and back track and find the flaw. Its also great to keep engraining everything. Even though I've seen a great deal of improvement, I get a little lazy and thangs start to slip back to the old swing patterns. So, I quick review for the start up to and including the 2.8 drill with a few trips back to the 90% forward drill have helped incredibly.
Also, the earlier you get a V1 the more on track you'll be with your efforts. I've had 2 and am almost ready for my next. For the cost of a round of cheap golf, Tom has gotten me back to hitting better on the very next round. What would you pay to know 5 strokes off your next round?
Keep at it and keep us posted on your progress!
Danny
Tom, danny, thomas.linehan, these replies are spot-on, appreciated. As tough as they are to take sometimes, it's exactly the type of feedback I was looking for and just didn't know where else to get. Didn't know about the V1 analysis program, this is probably too early yet for that, but thanks for the time and sincere effort to review and respond quickly.
I know this from my own students, you think you know something because parts of it look familiar to you, and so you try to 'jump ahead', grabbing pieces along the way. @Tom Saguto you do say it several places, but it bears repeating and underlining, this swing system requires you to unlearn what you've previously learned, or at least put it all aside for the moment. @danny the Ben Hogan clip is a real gem, thanks for digging to find it. Of course I will go back to the "Get Out and Go Play" fast-track course vids next, working through them in order. Just glancing through a few I already caught seeming small details (trail elbow position, hands forward along with the weight, slight open club face) that I missed before and which are obviously key to the whole approach. I guess I also owe this forum some updates on progress given the response already, which I will try to do soon.
Thanks again
Eric
Just re-ran the clip. Your shaft is too high and you're arm swinging. The shaft plane is way off. Go back and start over in the classes. When I screw up I can picture what Tom's swing looks like and I solve. Y own problems.
1st to me you don't have any weight forward. You hands are at a neutral position
Found the clip, it was on Ed Sullivan it seems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEM
Hi Eric! welcome to the program!
Tom won't be able to help you with the video as it conflicts with the V1 analysis program. However, I can share some things I'm seeing in your swing.
The 1st thing I noticed is that your head is dropping down and back in your backswing. You head needs to remain in the same position from address through the back swing all the way to as long as possible after impact. I do see you have your weight forward but, it seem to move more away from the target during the downswing and at impact. I see you working that hip bump but, it looks like your moving your hip backward again after the initial bump/slide. I believe this is because you not keeping the weight moving toward the target.
I'm sure Tom would prescribe the 90% weight forward drill for you. This is a good drill. The first thing to do, is set up to the ball and start moving your weight forward while keeping your head in place. Just work that weight forward first. Then work the back swing while keeping your head in place. This is not an easy drill but it gets you the feelings of keeping the weight forward and presets your hips so you won't have to worry about that hip bump so much.
Most of all, Loosen the heck up, I can feel your tension from here! Loosey goosey!!! Work on grooving a swing. Just swing that club back and forth and start working your hips into it. I saw a Ben Hogan appearance, which I cannot find right now, where demonstrated that very drill. Just swing back and forth, back and forth. Feel that loose feeling and how the club starts to work with momentum. I wish I could find that video... I can't remember which talk show it was.
Danny
Hi Eric,
You are absolutely free to post videos here for others in the community to review and provide suggestions. As for me personally, I know you will understand that I must be careful in this regard in order to avoid opening up a can of worms to the detriment of my V1 Swing Video Analysis service. Having said that, I will pin your post so it will be more visible to others in the Forum who are very generous in their willingness to help fellow SagutoGolfers.
Here is one thing I will offer as I took a quick peek at your setup in the face-on video to see how your feet, hands, club shaft and ball are positioned, because our swing is doomed from the start if we don't have the foundational elements correct. Since I observed none of these to be consistent with what I teach in Chapter 1 of the Golf Swing Simplified course or Part I of the Get out and Go Play fast-track course, I have to believe that you may have inadvertently skipped either of these sections or did not spend sufficient working on building your base.
The chapters, lessons, and drills that comprise the Golf Swing Simplified course curriculum are not randomly ordered; they are designed to be taken sequentially from the beginning. Regardless of a member's skill level or years of experience, this swing necessitates a complete reboot for someone transitioning from a shift & lift swing (which is typically the case), and therefore it is imperative that one take sufficient time to ensure that the fundamental components of the first couple of chapters are mastered. From the ground up there is nothing superfluous in the Stack & Tilt swing - in other words, everything with a purpose, and a purpose for everything. (For example, contrary to shift and lift where you may be taught to keep your trail foot perpendicular to the target line as a means of "creating resistance" in your trail side, in S&T we flare both feet out 10-20 degrees in order to facilitate a free flowing, inclined hip and shoulder turn.) I cannot emphasize this enough, as frustrations predominantly occur when students jump ahead in the curriculum without properly dedicating themselves to the foundational base upon which our consistently repeatable, powerful, low maintenance swing must be built.
Let's see if others in the community have something to add!
Tom