As I mentioned in an introductory post, I began the program with (what I considered) a serviceable swing. It was great when it worked but that was always a crap shoot. One aspect of my swing I never liked was the 3/4 backswing I took. I got plenty of power from it but always suspected it was a symptom of further problems and that I'd been kicking the can for years. I started watching @Tom Saguto after finding one of his videos regarding possible benefits from a short backswing, went down the rabbit hole, and now I'm here.
Until a week or so ago, I knew nothing about S&T, or even general golf swing theory. I learned to play as a kid, had a general feel for my swing, and have just operated on instinct for decades. I've occasionally filmed my swing over the years so I had a pretty good idea of what it looked like. Watching the S&T videos, I started to think "my swing looks somewhat like that. This might not be too tough a fix. A few tweaks here and there and I'll be on top of my game!" As you may have anticipated, I was very, very, wrong.
I set up a net at my house and have been practicing the drills (Chapter 2 only, as suggested by damn near everyone here) a bit every day. The past few days had me questioning the wisdom of reinventing my swing. It wasn't THAT bad. Have I ruined what I had? Should I have left it alone? Because now - even if I walk away from the program - every time I step over the ball I'd be in a mental battle between my old swing with what I know to be good information on S&T.
That was my thinking yesterday but am happy to report that I made some meaningful progress this evening. It's not that my swing has gotten much better but, more importantly, I'm beginning to understand why (watching every video in Chapter 2 at least a half dozen times certainly helped).
The epiphany came at about a minute into in Lesson 2.6, where Tom describes how the left shoulder may try to shift down toward the ball but "simply gives up" when there is weight on the trail leg. That's when the lightbulb went off: that sounded exactly like what I've been doing all these years and likely explains the 3/4 backswing. Moreover, filming my practice today, I remarked that - even if the shot was far from crispy - I actually have a smoother, more complete backswing. I never had that!
I still think a lot of what was "correct" in my old swing is pretty close to S&T (minus tilt) so there's hope that the battle will not be too protracted. Time will tell.
Can't wait to get the tilt/turn/extend down so I can move on to the next chapters.
The "real vs feel" aspect of moving to S&T from a shift and lift swing is probably the hardest part. I see many guys who are doing what I call "modified S&T", or a blended swing of S&T with deadly elements of shift and lift.
The most common fault I see is people will start with 60% of their weight on the lead foot at address, then on the backswing, it's clear their weight is moving to their trail foot, thus they get over a bent right knee which limits their turn, their head has moved off the ball, thus they arm-lift the club to the top which flattens their shoulders. This is probably the #1 fault I see with S&T folks.
I call their blended swing a "casino slot machine swing" because their swing is like pulling a slot machine lever and about anything can happen from hitting the jackpot to nothing good like fat shots, thin shots, pulls, etc.
@desmondmoss thanks for letting me know. I will definitely post one soon now that I know it's appropriate. Already sent Tom one and will send more as needed. This is a great community and hope I'm able to reciprocate with wisdom, once acquired.
People post their swings here also. If you want professional feedback from Tom, I highly recommend sending him one. After all, we're merely repeating what he's saying. We would never disrespect Tom by giving other teachers advise. Besides, None of us even want other teachers advise.
Thanks @desmondmoss ! If you're referring to the pics in this thread, they're from just before I started the program and one a few days after. I posted some new ones in a different thread. That said, I suspect your comment would be applicable to the new pics too. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for - you're right to say that I may think I'm moving in the right directions but really not completing the motions. Feel vs Real can be hard to assess on your own.
I'll work on things a bit more and post a vid for everyone - assuming that's appropriate. I thought a video might be presumptuous (as we send them to Tom through the V1 app) which is why I went with screenshots. I'm relatively new here and, still unclear on the rule, and didn't want to breach etiquette.
Thanks again.
From what I can see in your pictures is, your right leg is not straight enough. The left knee moves straight forward and your right leg straightens out. This move keeps your point of contact the same at address. It feels like your moving your but and back forward at first but it's really just staying in the same place.
My advice is , don't try everything in chapter 2 all at once. Break each lesson down slowly so you get it in grained . It's impossible to think about all the key steps within 2-3 seconds. A lot of the simpler thoughts/positions sould be automatic.
For me, putting my head on a wall and turning my shoulders down takes care of 1/2 the battle. Ingrain this feeling.
Tom calls the " turning the lead shoulder down at the ball" the best golf tip ever. It's true.
You should only ever hit 3/4 swings until your 8 out of 10 crispy. (IMO)
If you post videos of yourself to us or "The Colonel", you will advance way faster.
Thanks @GolfLivesMatter ! Very timely comment as I was about to post a question regarding the length of backswing. Despite frequent, conscious, effort, it's one thing I can't seem to shed. I'll post soon and tag you in the thread.
Just a quick comment about the length of the backswing. Keep a close eye on the trail foot position at address because, at least for me, I tend to NOT flare my foot outward because my brain is used to "turning into my right side, or over my right knee" (old swing) which severely limits backswing length. This also causes an arm lift about halfway up because the body can't turn any further, and as such the shoulders become flat at the top vs. angled downward to the ball. When I start hitting weird shots the first place I look is my right foot at address to make sure it's flared outward because if not, a chain of bad events ensues.
If someone is used to the "other" swing then the flared right foot will feel like there's too much freedom of rotation, or possibly a little unsettling for a while until one gets used to the freedom of movement it allows.
Thanks for the thorough response @Tom Saguto ! It's been so long since I've had formal lessons (more than 30 years) I don't even remember what I was taught. I'm not even sure that I've been doing what I was taught. I think I developed a sort of hybrid swing on my own (unconsciously) which doesn't feel too far off from S&T and perhaps that's why I feel like I'm progressing in these first stages. Smart money's on plateau coming soon.
Nice comment, @James Flood!! You have touched on all the major differences between S&T and shift & lift, so these challenges are indeed the most common. Taking them in the order you presented, here is what you were likely taught by "conventional" instruction:
Turn your shoulders more level.
Keep your trail leg flexed to restrict hip turn. Turning your shoulders against this "quiet" lower body will create resistance and torque so you can snap your body like a rubber band back towards the ball.
Get that weight loading into your firm trail side, keeping those shoulders leveled and giving you more weight to unleash into impact. Let your head go back with it. Don't concern yourself with maintaining a swing center or having control over your low point. This sliding oval is much better than a circle, and of course you will unwind and shift back precisely to the same spot each and every time.
Lift the club high with your hands while those shoulder turn level. The higher the better so you can get to parallel or beyond. No worries - you'll drop it perfectly into the same slot consistently on the way down.
Roll those hands through impact. It's a power move that you will again time precisely on every swing with every club.
So... considering that's what has likely been ingrained into you in the past, I would say that having a solid feel on 1/3 of your shots after only a week's time working at the complete antithesis of nearly everything you've previously learned is pretty darn good. Actually, it's quite fantastic! (And by the way, everything you touched on is the reason why Chapters 1 & 2 are so critical to the process here, and why we should be in no rush to leave them.)
Keep up the great work!!
PS: FYI, the S&T book has an entire chapter on Stack and Tilt vs. "Conventional". I've attached a copy of the summary page below.
It's been a little more than a week and I think I'm making solid progress. Only been hitting into a net a bit every say so going by feel alone right now.
My biggest challenges thus far are likely common to most here:
TILTING: progress made but still need to get that left shoulder down more. Definitely the most drastic change made to my swing thus far and takes a lot of getting used to. Feels strange but, as we all know, feel is not real;
HIP TURN: again, progress made but could use more. I suspect that greater tilt will facilitate this;
WEIGHT FORWARD: coming along, just need more of it. Still some residual weight shifting from my previous swing;
LOWER BACKSWING: want more "around" and less "up" but I'm not fighting that battle yet.
RELEASE /QUIET WRISTS AFTER IMPACT: think I always had a slight post-impact roll (not in backswing) so trying to put the brakes on a bit earlier.
Summary: after roughly a week I think about 1/3 of all my shots feel pretty solid. Backswing feels good, downswing less so. With practice, should be up to 1/2 in another week. Considering that I'm completely rebuilding my swing, I'm taking that as a win for now. Frustration has not yet set in and really enjoying the program and this community.
Thanks for reading!
Great points @Tom Saguto. I always struggled wondering why I wasn’t able to get the club wrapped around the back of my body for a “full” backswing, but now I realize it’s because that isn’t natural for me! Your third point mentioning “the lead knee will kick inward” when you try to go further than what’s natural really puts it into perspective. In my mind, the knee kicking inward as a result of over turning or rotating is like a screw being overtightened into a thin piece of material, causing the material to bind, crack, or warp. It’s more than what’s necessary.
@lagerg82 the best way I could explain is that I had a somewhat full shoulder turn but my lead arm (which was held straight) would just barely get higher than parallel to the ground. Always felt like I was quitting the backswing prematurely. Now (I think) I know why. Looking at the pics I posted above, the 1st now looks like a baseball swing, the 2nd a golf swing.
nice work @James Flood You mentioned 3/4 back swing. I guess 3/4 is relative to a full back swing? @Tom Saguto what defines a full back swing or is everybody different? I guess you can go back too far?
Wow. Dramatic improvement, @James Flood!!
One nitpicking (but important0 technical tip: When taking a DTL photo or video - and especially when you submit your V1 - make sure the camera is on your foot line and not the target line so the positions and path are not skewed by the angled perspective.
Also, if you have some time check out yesterday's KFC Club members' video where I give myself lesson. One of the issues I was fighting: hands and arms above the shoulder line at the top! (Actually, they were probably higher than yours.)
I do believe you are well on your way!!
Thanks @Tom Saguto ! One reason I made the post was to emphasize the benefit of spending time watching - and rewatching - the videos in chapter 2. Each time, I pick up on nuances I missed previously and it helps me refine my practice. It's like I start with a macro understanding of the concept, hack around a bit, watch them again and eventually absorb the micro. It's all there in the program. I'm going to spend a few more days until I have something close to a workable swing and will submit the vids for your V1 analysis.
For now, here are 2 screenshots of my swing; one taken exactly one week ago (before joining and committing to S&T) and one from last night after my revelation. A blind man could see the difference in tilt. I know my swing path is still a bit high but I should be able to fix that without too much trouble. For now, just seeing the tilt was a major injection of confidence that I've made the right decision and it's what led me to post about it last night.
Thanks again!
@James Flood - You had me pretty worried halfway through your comment; I'm sure glad you recued yourself from the ledge!! I'll go ahead and pin your post - perhaps a few of our community's swing warriors here might be inclined to offer some perspective.
You'll oftentimes see me referencing those "ghosts of swings past". The weight shift into the trail side and the level shoulder turn are two particularly stubborn demons, and they are indeed linked to each other. Nice discovery!!
I see in a separate thread you referenced the V1 Swing Analysis. That's exactly what I was going to recommend to make sure you are on the right path!