Taking a divot for first time.Then it all falls apart. Vid/Pic Inside.

The one thing I've found is if I initiate the backswing with my arms, I have a much higher chance of getting too far to the right on the takeaway. When that occurs, my left shoulder wants to "glide" to the right vs. rotate downward. As such, at the top my shoulders are a little flatter and turned...at most...3/4...not to 90*. This leads to thin shots. If I initiate the backswing with my shoulders, my left shoulder has a much easier time rotating downward.

I also have to monitor my the left shoulder to make sure it's not too tense or "shrugged" at address because if it's shrugged or tensed upward and/or outward, it gets in the way of rotating downward. I do a left shoulder check to make sure it's relaxed and "down" and also not protruding outward at address. For me, and maybe others, this is one of the most overlooked causes of swing inconsistencies.

Forgot to mention I actually was at the RYDER CUP on the singles matchplay on Sunday. The efficiency in the swings of these guys is unreal. I especially watched Rahm and Finau. All legs and hips.

I played today, I’m normally mid 80’s. I shot an 82 with a triple bogey on 18 ugh. Double on 10. 10 pars, no birdies, but I had a lot of fun! Thanks Tom

Was on the range a few days ago and having mostly Ok contact, but sometimes great contact and hips were opening up at 45 degrees on contact correctly creating much more distance and accuracy.

After lots of experimentation I realized I was taking my hands too deep in the back swing or to put it another way my hands were taking off on their own, getting disconnected from the body, and I wasn't keeping the club in front of my chest.

When I was hitting it great it FELT like my backswing was more straight back (it really wasn't going straight back upon review in the mirror). My arms were just staying in front of my chest on the shoulder turn back. My hands ended up just above my shoulder with my lead arm straight like it was supposed to be. Created pretty easy extension without a ton of effort really.

If I keep my weight centered and had it on front side at top of backswing (still a work in progress) - I was coming through really well back to ball with correct open hips and really hitting it well. If my arms went off on their own too deep on backswing I was not getting back to the ball and not getting hips open and my weight would not get forward enough. Arms star taking over in the downswing- not the body driven swing.

I have never had my hips open consistently in my golf career. I feel wide open upon contact now when doing this correct, but it is really just about 45 degrees with some actual hands ahead shaft lean at contact and am hitting ball first more and more. It seems like a simple swing also.

Just take the fckign thing back and come back through.

During most of this process this summer I would have a good session or period on the range and then the next day it would be back to struggling.

This "straighter" backswing adjustment seems to have staying power. 3 days in a row of a more repeatable swing with OK to decent to very good contact. It translates to pitching wedges up through driver when I am staying fairly centered and weight gets to front side.

Getting the hips open at contact is an entirely new golf world for me. Of course continuing to stay aware and work on the Saguto core fundamentals of straight lead arm and weight on front side.

It is getting there.

Here is update from Tom's biggest PITA student.

Making progress. Went through bag today at range PW>8i>5i>Driver. About 40 balls maybe.

Its coming along. Am using a slight Hogan drag to trail side and weight goes to inside half of trail foot and getting back to front side OK. Staying reasonably centered over ball. Not great, and not best hip opening yet on downswing, or best extension yet, but getting better and kind of (knock on wood) repeatable.

Ball contact first was mostly good and taking some actual divots more often in front of ball.

Big key also seems to be really focusing feeling like I am keeping arms straight throughout the backswing and downswing and keeping hands from doing a fcking thing. Club getting to same point of contact better. I know my trail arm does bend on backswing, of course, but the idea of keeping arms straight keeps it glued to my upper chest better and keeps from coming outside, releasing early, or manipulating the clubhead.

When I feel brave and extend a little more and get a full shoulder turn the ball really goes.

This swing will work and be a decent place to build from and take to the course and have some fun I think.

This video seems to put it together pretty well. Keeping the lead arm straight.

Will keep at it.

Nice detail, @GolfLivesMatter! With regard to videos not revealing weight distribution shifts, at around the 5:34 mark of this Hogan Hip Turn YT episode I deploy the V1 pressure mats to show real time weight loads as the swing progresses. Even I occasionally fight a little bit of drift from those old swing demons!

For me, incorrect weight drifting to my trail side was causing a majority of the problems, including shanking. Weight distribution is hard to nail down because videos don't reveal subtle weight distribution drifts. However, if I place a golf ball under the outside of my trail foot and swing, and if that feels "different" than my regular swing in terms of weight distribution at the top, or I feel more tilted at the top, then I know I was drifting to the trail side without the ball.

The other fault was lack of keeping the club handle in front of my chest during the backswing. My check is to take the club back and see if my left shoulder has only turned about 45 degrees vs more near 90. I have to be super careful with shorter swing drills because I can engrain a half-shoulder turn because the swings are shorter, or I must be keenly aware that my shoulders are not turning to 90 degrees. Lack of shoulder turn on the backswing, with an arm swing finish to the top, creates all kinds of problems. Arm swings can also move weight to my trail side at the top.

The other fault I see all the time, and I get into myself, is a flattening of the shoulders on the takeaway, then more flattening on the downswing. Flattening sends the club deeper on the backswing, and outwards on the downswing. If I put impact tape on my 7 iron, then take a flatter shoulder backswing, the mark will be towards the hosel. Conversely, if I don't flatten my swing, or stay vertical, the impact mark is on the middle to slight toe of the club face.

There are other issues for sure, but for me I would say the above accounts for about 95% of my swing faults. The good news is they're not hard to fix now that I know what I'm looking for.

@Mojoman Your experience sounds like mine. I have been working at Tom's program since last summer. I started the program because I was tired of not being able to figure out why I hit so many snap hooks and fat shots. Initially I had some improvement, but then I went backwards. Once this started happening I got a video lesson from Tom. He said I had a lot of pieces and made a few setup suggestions and a couple of drills to work on. I have tried these, but I have come to the realization for all the practicing I still am struggling with the basics. I find that I have a couple of issues.

1. rolling my hands and arms. This has been extremely difficult habit to break.

2. #1 leads me to overswing, flatten my shoulders and get the club what seems like a very flat position. My irons feel very heavy.

3. Then I sometimes have an over the top move which causes more issues than I previously had. This problem creates unbelievable shots off the hozzle at times and very weak iron shots.

The frustrating part is I will hit some crispy drives, 3W, and 4Ws. The other day I hit an perfect 3w from 245yd and stuck the green in 2 on a par five. I was like that was two extremely crispy shots. However, my 9-5 irons are scary to hit because I have no confidence in the swing. I have had to lower my expectations from how I previously played. I used play to a 10 handicap about 2 years ago.

The good thing is I am learning a lot about my swing and after some time I am starting to understand things that are going wrong. I am trying to focus on some of the drills to help correct these issues so I can get back to playing fun golf. I find I understand the concepts in the drills, but when I practice I found that it is not good to hit a ton of balls if your not doing the drills correctly.

My frustration and lack of having fun has been really humbling, but I continue to grind away at it. I believe I can make this system work for me. The next step is to try to narrow my focus, because I find my mind is going nuts trying to figure out the mechanics of this swing.

Went to range again today for longer session.

Some good things at times, and some not so good things.

Cannot hit a driver now at all. Actually prevents me from going out to even play.

Been at it daily for nearly 8 weeks.

Even though I have learned a lot and really enjoy Tom's concepts, sense of humor, and curriculum approach which are without question sound and effective- it's just not working out for me. It's me- not the system.

Going to take a break and setup in person lessons with local pro and start from scratch.

Thanks to all for all of your insight and help!

@Tom Saguto

Got the V1 Lesson feedback.

Thanks again for your help.

Will keep working.

I feel your pain!

Video submitted.

My analysis is my shoulder turn is insufficient. My weight is not on front side enough at start nor stays there, and it leads to flipping and trying to save the shot with hands. I hit the one in video very fat. Entire motion looks very stiff and nonathletic.

I am definitely taking steps back from when I started and the first video a few weeks ago.

Tom,

I submitted a second video (well I screwed it up so you might have 3) also since V1 limits size to 50 mb.

In THAT one I used a slight shift back and then got my weight back to front by time I was finishing backswing. Started with weight forward. What Hogan did sort of.

Well, that was what I was TRYING to do.

To make you feel even more like puking, I went out and hit about ten 8 irons in practice field using THAT swing which is more fluid and feels more rhythmic with the weight shift but tries to incorporate the core S and T.

They were all very good. Last 8 irons went over 160 yards. No Shanks. No slices.

I don't know what to tell you.

Hey, you think I am having fun here??? Lol.

Video not the greatest angle as I propped it on my pullcart.

If my bad shots were just kind of bad I would not be too concerned.

They are unplayable. Shanks. Weak slices.

I hit some good shots with essentially the same crappy swing then several bad ones.

It can't be this complicated or fragile.

As noted, the only thing I kind of trust is the Anti Slice setup.

Will send it in about an hour.

Went to range at lunch. Nothing working at all except the Anti Slice drill where my rear foot is pulled way back and weight is 75% on front side to start. QUESTION: How does one transition from that drill to regular setup????

I took some video and it looks absolutely terrible. Will send it in for a V1 analysis. Will give this some more time, but right now it is totally broken.

Went to local range with Fiberbuilt mats tonight for a quick bucket to make sure this afternoon progress got reinforced and did fairly well with the 8 iron. Always feels a little odd on the mats. Never exactly quite sure about ground contact/ball contact as it is pretty forgiving.

Tried a few with Driver. LOL. Have work to do. Have to get used to the "foreign" more inside takeaway around body on that while keeping front shoulder relationship to the ball.

It is really weird. LOL. Will try and get some video. Where hands end up (below and behind shoulder line looks good). It is HOW I get there that feels so foreign. Like I am doing something really wrong.

Quick update.

Went to practice field area and hit 8 irons. A few crappy ones when I was getting setup and other checkpoints dialed in. Then a string of pretty decent full swings, then a few slices. The grip change is helpful.

Slices seemed to be directly related to backswing path. If I brought it straight back at all it led to a fade, fat, or slice as my downswing came more from outside (old habits).

Via trial and error I went to what FELT like an extreme inside takeaway around my hip and body. Hit several bombs ( 160 yards and you could barely feel the contact it was so compressed).

QUESTION: Is it OK to have my handpath travel almost over my rear foot instep on takeaway???? Because that is what it felt like and upon reviewing in the mirror afterwards that IS where it kind of goes. It feels waaaay low and inside around my hip.

If you keep reverting to shanking and slicing then there's a movement or position that is propelling the clubhead, consistently, outward at the ball. Believe me, look at my shank "nightmare" thread. The good news is your doing something that's likely very easy to fix because it's a fundamental flaw, not some mysterious technical tweak. Some position or movement is throwing the club head at the ball.

There's nothing wrong with a "shorter" swing because as Tom said, many pro's are going to more compact swings. But, and trust me because I've done this, even more compact swings don't ensure the end of shanks slices / pulls, etc. It has to do, at least for me, with shoulder turn vs. arm swing. More below.

I went from ridiculous shanking to shooting 37 on a nine the other day after shooting 44 on the front. This was on a notoriously difficult course. Two days prior I was telling everyone to CLEAR OUT ON THE RIGHT!!! LOL.

Mirror checks. Mirrors are invaluable to check positions, but keep in mind you're checking static positions which are much easier to replicate. Let's face it, it's not all that hard to replicate Tom's backswing position with manual placements, but in fluid motion it can be more difficult. But, I think there's one key point that is often overlooked....

Tom's chest is rotated as far back as he can rotate his chest, meaning the club handle is as close as possible to being in front of the buttons of his shirt at the top. This is the part that I think people struggle with because it's easy to get lazy and start arm swinging the club to the top. Also, check out Tom's feet position. Both feet are flared. I see so many guys with a straight right foot (unflared) because that was taught in the conventional swing to load-up on the right side. It's VERY easy to get out over the right side of the right foot if you're coming from the shift and lift swing. Flared right foot provides an "anchor".

The key component to the backswing for me is keeping the club handle in front of the chest no matter the length of swing. If my shoulder rotates halfway down towards the chin, then the handle of the club on the backswing should be in front of the shirt buttons. Again, look at Tom's position at the top...buttons vs. club handle. Yes the handle is behind the buttons at the top, but not a lot. The reason is this: if the club handle gets disconnected from being in front of the chest, then sequencing becomes much harder. This is why people blade or chunk short shots...their arms travel back and the chest stays pointed at the ball, then the chest and left shoulder moves left too early in relation to the club handle.

On the course, and due to tension or excess focus on controlling the shot, it's easy to start abbreviating the shoulder turn and thus letting the arms do the work to complete the backswing. So the above (hopefully) might explain why you need to drop the right foot back into a very closed stance to hit balls.

I can say for near certainty that most struggling players do not turn their shoulders back enough, thus they arm the club to the top. The last thing I want is for my left shoulder to have a massive head-start on the downswing because my left shoulder has nowhere to go but left/up at the start of the downswing, which means my right shoulder is going out and around. That almost always results in a weak fade or even shanks.

I might add that "shorter" swings keep the club handle more in front of the chest which makes sequencing the downswing easier. That's why pitch shots feel easier (at least for me). When folks try to hit parallel at the top, all too often it's accomplished by using the arms which means the club handle is far behind the chest, or the chest is pointing at the ball and the club handle is "way back there".

Watch Tom's backswing in all the videos. The club handle is never buried behind him and his chest is turned facing the camera which means the club handle is nearby.

I suggest putting the clubs down and get in front of a mirror to check positions. If the positions appear to be consistent with Tom's teachings (shoulder down, club shaft traveling upwards at about 45* to parallel, left wrist is not bowed or cupped), then you should be in a decently good position on the backswing. It sounds like a lot but it's pretty straight forward.

In conjunction with the above, an equally important step is to check your weight distribution with your eyes closed, from address to the top, then upon transition. I bet a case of beer that your weight is drifting to your right side, possibly even over to the outside of your trail foot on the backswing. This can easily happen without detection if coming from a shift and lift swing. One improvement for me was widening my stance about 2 balls, PLUS flaring my right foot out more because that tends to keep my weight on the inside of my right foot, like an anchor. For me, a narrower stance with a straight trail foot (not flared) is a recipe for weight drifts onto the center, or to the outside of my right foot. Check out Tom's stance with a 7 iron, it's not narrow, and his feet are flared which (to me) provides a base for which to stay over the ball. My old coach used to put a golf ball under the outside of my right foot to keep my weight on the inside of my right foot at the top.

If all the above checks out, but slices still occur, then you might want to see if your lead leg/knee is pumping upwards too early in your downswing, throwing your weight to the trail side. In my experience, any left to right ball flight tells me there's one or more dynamic forces that is causing the club to travel outside the target line and across the ball.

Next, we all talk about the left shoulder turning down under the chin, however, if the left shoulder starts to travel down but stops halfway, then the arms will complete the backswing. This creates a situation whereby the left shoulder has a massive head start on the downswing. When that occurs, the left shoulder is rotating left and up too early which throws the right shoulder outward on the downswing.

Finally, one potential contributor to slice swings is not about technique, but more about tension. I often find that my shoulders scrunched up and forward at address due to years of bad computer posture. So now I stand up straight, let my shoulders relax down and flat, relaxed, THEN I bend down) to address the ball. If your shoulders are typically tense and scrunched forward this will feel odd to you. Scrunched shoulders will (at least for me) send the club outwards on the downswing, and it's something that swing mechanics can't fix, one of those invisible pre-existing conditions that can go undetected, and can cause a witch hunt for faults that are not actually faults.