Tom,
I just spent an hour and a half on the range and converting my swing has been a journey. I am a long time flipper and after working all winter, I finally worked that out of my swing with excellent feedback as I made flush contact with the ball much better. That did require learning how to hold wedge on the right wrist.
However, a new, old part of my swing has entered the picture and that is the ARMS! I am fighting this constantly, that when I get to the top of the backswing, I want to fire my arms downward and of course that causes me to loose the wedge, and contact is not as precise. I wrote you about this a couple of weeks ago and there were several others that commented on my post, but I have to tell you I am still fighting this. I also asked. you if the right wedge is still maintained on the follow through side and you sent me some pictures of the originators of the Stack and Tilt showing that they still had the wedge on their follow through ( quite frankly, I could not see that much of a wedge being held by them).
All of this aside, after working diligently on trying to find a solution to using my arms less, what I found was the following: 1) When I take the club back, I am letting my shoulder turn keep the club in the same position as it is at address ( with my weight forward and hands inside the left thigh). 2) Once at the top of the backswing (which in a mirror, looks like my hands are where they should be), I am trying to ingrain my next motion to be starting the backswing with the bump of the left hip towards the target. This simple motion, starts to drop my arms down and I am more easily able to hold the wedge in my right wrist longer as I start to turn my shoulders towards the target. Now, here is my question, when I make contact, club to ball with hands forward, I feel like I can slap the "ever living hell out of the ball" with my right hand! (Which by the way, you talk about when using a sledge hammer and Ben Hogan always saying that he wished he had two right hands). By doing this, I no longer have the wedge in my right wrist in the follow through! So, I have looked at video after video on your site of you and sometimes I see the wedge and may other times, I do not. So, what is the story here. hold it (the wedge)or release it? I am confused.
From my work, I am finding that the swing is really NO ARMS, it is the shoulders going back and turning them the other direction. You keep emphasizing the maintaining the the same position of the club throughout the swing, and in order to do that, (which is most difficult for those that have spent years swinging with our arms), the swing amounts to the shoulders and the body core cause the swing, nothing else.
Finally, I have a suggestion for your site. I really enjoyed your video of you teaching the female Professional that was converting to the Stack and Tilt. Please show more of your lessons with people that are taking lessons from you as their is great diagnosis that we can watch and how you remedy it with them .
Many thanks,
Ron
Yes this is a great post. I have noticed when I use my body and keep the arms out of things, my follow through position with my arms and hands is lower.
I think if someone is used to flipping it will feel like they're holding their hands back. As for flipping, I think (for me) that comes from my "old swing" whereby I'd be on my right side at impact and thus the only way to save the shot was to flip the right hand. So my brain still thinks when the hands reach a certain position they need to flip because it was trained-into my brain. For me, longer punch-type shots are the best drills, and totally good shots on the course too.
My 2 cents is you might want to try an impact bag for practice. Another one is the Greg Norman Secret which keeps the right hand angle through impact.
i 100% agree with showing your teaching sessions. I learned a lot when I used to watch Mike Malaska. I just couldn't consistently make his methods work for me from watching videos.
Ronald- My dead arms drill is to just do the Tilt, Turn, and Extend with the upper connected arms, the forearms and hands are imagined to be tension-free and just along for the ride. Wear a tank top for this drill to feel the connection at the upper arms.
A new feel that is working for me regarding the 2.8 downswing with irons while not changing my wrist angles-- coming into impact/follow-through the club shaft is diagonal like at address and I keep it like that at impact and the club shaft is still diagonal in the follow-through in a feeling sense. I was hitting greens today with irons! The next step for me tomorrow, do the same thing while crunching the ride side for right side bend coming into impact!
Thanks Tom for a quick response. I understand what the wedge is, clearly. My point is when I start the downswing with a slide of the hips toward the target or bump, my arms fall naturally into the right position and as I turn my shoulders and I make contact with the ball, I really feel my right hand slapping the crap out of the ball. I think my wrist is releasing into the ball. As a result, the wedge is gone in the right hand. And to make sure I am understanding you correctly, that is not what should happen. I should keep that wrist cocked, to hold the wedge through the follow through? Is that right? I rewatched the video of “ load and explode chip tonight and will focus on those drills to hold that wedge if that is what you recommend. Dead arms and hands is a great descriptive set of words, but some drills on how to do that would be appreciated. Also, how do you get your students that come to you that have been arm swingers all their golf lives convert to dead arms and hands. If you have drills that I have overlooked on your site, please advise. One last thought, I read about subscribers talking about no tension in the arms. I am sure I suffer this issue as well which definitely would help lead to dead arms. I guess I am asking for any drills that you can share to help me get to dead arms and hands. Please!?!
Hi Ron,
Excellent and nicely detailed post!
A couple of things I'd like to mention:
1) Please check out this post initiated by @ihmpadre about dead hands and arms as I think it applies well to what you are saying about "NO ARMS".
2) Regarding the "flying wedge", more than a few have misconstrued this concept as the retention of the 90° angle formed by the trail arm and the shaft at the top of the backswing. This is not correct and is causing some confusion as a result. As such I need to clarify this better, and I will endeavor to address this specifically in a school video at my earliest opportunity. In the meantime, let me try to define it another way:
At address, from a face-on view your lead arm and the shaft should form a straight line, with your hands forward and even with the inside of the thigh of the lead leg. This straight line is the preset radius of your swing circle, and the angle formed between your trail forearm and the back of the trail hand (and, therefore, the shaft) gives you that lower case "y" look as discussed in this lesson from the Indoor Training Program. It is this angle formed by the trail forearm and the back of the trail hand at the prescribed hands-forward address position that constitutes the "flying wedge", and THAT is what we must retain throughout the swing from setup to finish (as depicted in the finish photos of Bennett and Plummer that I will attach again here, and which should be clearer now). Does this make sense??
As for posting more videos of actual lessons, I will continue to do so whenever I believe there is a good teaching opportunity for school and club members embedded within the session, just as I did within the past couple of weeks in this video featuring my student Al.
I will pin your post as it is a good one and I would like others to see it and chime in with their thoughts, as @Peta just did.
Thanks!
Tom
So glad you wrote this post Ron as I also struggle with keeping the wedge. How much don't our hands move through the backswing and downswing. I remember hearing Tom say that at the top of the backswing, obviously once you have mastered Drill 2.8 that the weight of the clubhead will allow the head to drop further, but if it does, how do i get it back. I must say that after trying to implement the stack n tilt, i reaslise just how "armsie" I had become. I am a real chopoholic. But for me the secret lies in tilting. The more I tilt the less likely I am to chop.